# How far can society fall? Read on... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2006, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882 "2006-09-08T04:36:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/1 "2006-09-08T04:36:46Z")
I just saw [this.](http://www.channel3000.com/news/9803171/detail.html) > [@](#): > > MILWAUKEE – A children’s court prosecutor said that Milwaukee police are still trying to find all the individuals involved in the apparent gang rape of an 11-year-old girl. > > A 16-year-old girl and a 15-year-old boy have been charged in the assault. > > Criminal complaints said that the young girl was repeatedly assaulted by up to 19 boys in a north side home on Monday night as the 16-year-old girl told her what sex acts to perform. > > The complaints filed in Milwaukee County Children’s Court said that a 40-year-old relative of the 16-year-old also participated in the assault. > > Assistant District Attorney Matthew Torbeson said that the victim has said 15 to 20 individuals were involved in the assault. > > Torbeson said that the man is the uncle of the 16-year-old. > > The prosecutor said that he will likely ask that the 15- and 16-year-olds be waived to adult court. How is it possible that people would do this? It’s like Lord of the Flies meets A clockwork Orange meets The Manson family. Aside from wanting the same fate—times ten—to befall all the scum involved on a weekly basis, and the actual lopping off of what is between their legs, words fail me. :mad: ☹ :mad: ☹ :mad: ☹ :mad:… ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/2 "2006-09-08T04:54:14Z")
[http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2405678](http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2405678) Monsters. > [@](#): > > She and a 15-year-old boy were charged with being party to sexual assault. A 40-year-old man who is related to the teenage girl also took part in sex acts but has not been formally charged, according to the records. > > The 11-year-old identified about six possible suspects, and police were still looking for other people, said Matt Torbenson, an assistant district attorney. > > A search of the house turned up condoms and a video camera, Torbenson said. However, the legal side of me reminds me that we need more evidence, at first glance I thought they were caught in the act, but now I wonder if many are going to be falsely accused, if there is something that I hate, hate, hate! In cases like this one is that many times we get an incompetent prosecution due to ambition or the media circus. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/3 "2006-09-08T04:55:45Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] How is it possible that people would do this? [/QUOTE] Dude. We’re primates. A small percentage of us can repress our impulses on our own without some form of supervision and control. The rest of us? Monkeys who talk and wear shoes. Look it up. We’ve always been like this. Things like this have always happened. We just didn’t always have a global lightspeed network to bring us reports of the events within days or hours of their occurrence. We were formerly able to pretend that we had some sort of moral superiority as a species. We don’t. The great advantage of our modern mass communciations is that we are finally being confronted with the truth of who we really are. And the tragedy of our modern mass communications is that we are finally being confronted with the truth of who we really are. Turn off the TV and go out and enjoy the sunshine for a few hours. The horrors will still be there when you come back. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/4 "2006-09-08T05:09:31Z")
I’m going to guess that the sixteen year old was possibly also assaulted at some time in her life-the forty-year old assailant was a relative of her’s? Hmmmm… ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/5 "2006-09-08T05:18:59Z")
I’ll see your eastern Wisconsin sexual assault and raise you a western Wisconsin [necrophilic assault.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=387006) Which is weirder? I feel very lucky to be in Central Wisconsin. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/6 "2006-09-08T05:31:39Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] I just saw [this.](http://www.channel3000.com/news/9803171/detail.html) How is it possible that people would do this? It’s like Lord of the Flies meets A clockwork Orange meets The Manson family. Aside from wanting the same fate—times ten—to befall all the scum involved on a weekly basis, and the actual lopping off of what is between their legs, words fail me. :mad: ☹ :mad: ☹ :mad: ☹ :mad:… [/QUOTE] I want to believe there’s a false or exaggerated accusation at the root of this story. I’m afraid that what I want to believe about this kind of thing, and the truth about this kind of thing, often do not match. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/7 "2006-09-08T06:37:06Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Dude. We’re primates. A small percentage of us can repress our impulses on our own without some form of supervision and control. The rest of us? Monkeys who talk and wear shoes. Look it up. We’ve always been like this. [/QUOTE] Oh really? Perhaps you can point me to the incident where two adult monkeys helped a child get gang raped by 20 males. How dare you try to excuse this behavior, and to imply it is written in our genes. This is evil itself taking form. It goes _against_ our nature. Do you think it is natural for adults to direct the abuse of an eleven year-old? Do you think it is natural for twenty people to set upon a child, someone that is no threat to them, and use her like a rag? Maybe you do. Maybe I’ve been a fool to think that our make-up and our conditioning as social animals makes such behavior repulsive, abnormal, and beyond the understanding of the sane. Maybe I’ve been a fool to think these—I hesitate to even grace them with the term of “animals”—these _things_ could exist. I guess I was wrong. Just like I was evidently wrong that some—_thing_ would actually try to minimize the heinousness of the act and handwave it away, it being part of our true make up. Amazing. Sad. Disgusting. The story. And you. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/8 "2006-09-08T08:16:47Z")
I’m not trying to excuse this when I say I think it _is_ within our nature. There’s too much evidence from history to think otherwise. However, it is also within our nature to resist impulses like these, or to rise above the influences that would push us toward them. Most people do resist the evil in their natures most of the time, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there. And it wears such ordinary faces sometimes. And the fact that it’s there doesn’t excuse these actions in any way, shape or form. There is nothing that makes it even remotely all right to do this kind of damage to another human being, especially a child, who’s more vulnerable. I’d guess that most of these boys? men? wouldn’t have done anything like this if they’d been alone with the girl. What _is_ it about human nature that makes us so willing to do evil in groups? ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/9 "2006-09-08T09:54:15Z")
Nah **magellan01** , you need to read some more history. It’s all there, and it’s all in us. **Cervaise** nailed it. Luckily most people are under supervision and control. Probably the only good thing about organized religion and other dictatorships. ---
**Author:** ![Pullet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Pullet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pullet)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/10 "2006-09-08T09:58:35Z")
The most interesting part is how the 11 year old girl is (allegedly) romantically interested in the 16 year old girl, and how, after receiving the first set of instructions on performing oral sex from the older girl, the 11 year old then went on to (allegedly) choose the remaining people she had sex with on display for the 16 year old. Layers of social dynamic issues there that I can’t begin to understand. Of course, the fucking unfathomable bit is why so many people decided to go along with it. Like the necrophilia story. Even if I was interested in a bit of forbidden nookie, I certainly don’t have any friends that I would want knowing that I had transgressed, and I decidedly don’t know anyone who would actually join in. Maybe my friends are too milk toast. I like milk toast. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/11 "2006-09-08T10:04:49Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] How dare you try to excuse this behavior, and to imply it is written in our genes. This is evil itself taking form. [/QUOTE] Dana Carvey and I think you’re right. What force could cause people to do such things? Or who, even…now, who could it be? Could it be… **SATAN**?! ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/12 "2006-09-08T10:33:38Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Oh really? Perhaps you can point me to the incident where two adult monkeys helped a child get gang raped by 20 males. How dare you try to excuse this behavior, and to imply it is written in our genes. This is evil itself taking form. It goes _against_ our nature. Do you think it is natural for adults to direct the abuse of an eleven year-old? Do you think it is natural for twenty people to set upon a child, someone that is no threat to them, and use her like a rag? Maybe you do. Maybe I’ve been a fool to think that our make-up and our conditioning as social animals makes such behavior repulsive, abnormal, and beyond the understanding of the sane. Maybe I’ve been a fool to think these—I hesitate to even grace them with the term of “animals”—these _things_ could exist. I guess I was wrong. Just like I was evidently wrong that some—_thing_ would actually try to minimize the heinousness of the act and handwave it away, it being part of our true make up. Amazing. Sad. Disgusting. The story. And you. [/QUOTE] I don’t know much about cervaise, but I do not think the poster meant it the way you are taking it. I don’t beleive they were justifying the acts, rather stating that it is not a surprise these things happen. In fact, at least in a modern era, we are learning about these acts more often and this does not mean they did not happen in the past. Human beings have a long history of not exercising restraint. This does not diminish the horrifying nature of this alleged act. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/13 "2006-09-08T12:48:17Z")
_magellan01:_ > [@](#): > > How dare you try to excuse this behavior, and to imply it is written in our genes. This is evil itself taking form. Nobody tried to excuse the behavior. Take a few deep breaths. We all agree that social conditioning **should** give people a moral code that would make such acts unacceptable. Some folks either don’t get that kind of socialization, or it doesn’t work for them. But “evil” impulses are in all of us; otherwise there’d be no need for conditioning. Remember that outrage doesn’t equal refutation. Think before you start throwing insults around. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/14 "2006-09-08T12:53:45Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] This is evil itself taking form. [/QUOTE] Well, you can hardly blame the participants then, can you? How are mere teenagers to defy evil itself? ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/15 "2006-09-08T13:20:33Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Well, you can hardly blame the participants then, can you? How are mere teenagers to defy evil itself? [/QUOTE] Well, no. Certainly not mere teenagers. But the forty year old? At the very least he should have paused before giving in to his baser nature. -Waste (who recalls giving into evil in its myriad forms when he was but a teen) ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/16 "2006-09-08T13:34:58Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] Well, no. Certainly not mere teenagers. But the forty year old? At the very least he should have paused before giving in to his baser nature. -Waste (who recalls giving into evil in its myriad forms when he was but a teen) [/QUOTE] Evil itself? How can anyone defy evil itsef? I mean, if evil actually exists, surely it was responsible for the Holocaust, the Stalin purges, Pol Pot’s crimes, etc. Evil personified is, like, the Antichrist. The Foe of God. Way too big for one person to overcome. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/17 "2006-09-08T13:38:13Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] Well, no. Certainly not mere teenagers. But the forty year old? At the very least he should have paused before giving in to his baser nature. -Waste (who recalls giving into evil in its myriad forms when he was but a teen) [/QUOTE] Not to speak for \*\*Contrapunctual \*\*('cause I don’t dare), but to piggyback with what I myself believe: Attributing actions like this to “evil itself” can be considered minimizing personal responsibility. If “the devil made them do it”, then why should they be held accountable? Better, I think, to acknowledge that we’re all savages underneath a thin veneer of civilization, and to be constantly vigilant against such tendancies in ourselves and our children. Not because it excuses anyone, but because it holds us \*more \*responsible to one another. There is simply no excuse for what this girl experienced. The people who used her, if and when found guilty, should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. But don’t kid yourself that a whole lot of other Monkeys in Shoes wouldn’t have behaved just as badly, given the social pressure to do so. They’ve done so throughout history, throughout cultures. It doesn’t excuse them, but it explains them. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/18 "2006-09-08T14:36:24Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Do you think it is natural for adults to direct the abuse of an eleven year-old? Do you think it is natural for twenty people to set upon a child, someone that is no threat to them, and use her like a rag? Maybe you do. [/quote] When come back, bring reading comprehension and critical thinking skills. [QUOTE=magellan01] I guess I was wrong. [/quote] Actually, this is a pretty good demonstration of why you’ve been so completely wrong about so much else around the boards. [QUOTE=magellan01] Amazing. Sad. Disgusting. The story. And you. [/QUOTE] Ook ook. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/19 "2006-09-08T15:28:51Z")
[QUOTE=Pullet] The most interesting part is how the 11 year old girl is (allegedly) romantically interested in the 16 year old girl, and how, after receiving the first set of instructions on performing oral sex from the older girl, the 11 year old then went on to (allegedly) choose the remaining people she had sex with on display for the 16 year old. [/QUOTE] Where’s that information from? I didn’t see it in the articles linked to so far in this thread. -Kris ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2006, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882/20 "2006-09-08T16:48:30Z")
Clearly my contribution was misinterpreted. As a rule, if it appears under my name, it is a smart-assed response. I thought that the sign-off appearing after my SN would help with comprehension. A thousand pardons. That said, these are some sick bastards and I can only hope that if these allegations are true that they are all prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Minorhood be damned for those who have yet to achieve the age of majority. As to whether I would ascribe their actions to “evil”, well, I’m not at all sure that I would. As **WhyNot** says, doing so sidesteps responsibility, which I think is a dangerous road to traipse down. If these people did what they’ve been accused of, then the last thing I want is someone using “the devil made me do it” as an excuse. My disbelief in supernatural beings aside, I don’t think that there is an excuse for their actions. They stood on the precipice and didn’t hesitate to barrel down the far side with their nipples to the wind, doing 150 miles per in a rocket car. They earned whatever they get in doing so. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-can-society-fall-read-on/371882.md?page=2)