# How far could a sniper shoot? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 14, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199 "2003-05-14T14:08:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/21 "2003-05-14T21:05:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crafter\_Man \* > \*\*Two things: > > 1. While a (successful) 1500 yard shot w/ .30 cal might be possible, _no one_ can pull it off consistently. > \*\* A feild sniper, shooting on estimated ranges, from an improvised rest is one thing, a planned “hit” where you know exactly how far you have to shoot, and can work from a prepared position might be something else entirely. Not saying that 1500yds is easy, and maybe it is too generous, but I think the change in circumstances is worth pointing out. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/22 "2003-05-14T21:08:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crafter\_Man \* > \*\*The Army says 800 yards is the practical limit for 7.62 x 51; the Marines say 1000 yards. At any rate, 95% of shooters have an extremely tough time beyond 300 yards. Only a handful of people can shoot 7.62 x 51 at 800 yards and beyond. \*\* The Marine Corps KD (Known Distance) Rifle Qualification Cource includes (included?) 10 shots slow fire with the M16A1 or M16A2 from 500 yards in the prone position at a man-sized target. I personally used the M16A2, and out of probably four seperate weeks at the range qualifying (prequal and qual day, 10 shots each day, 80 total shots from 500), I missed the black maybe four times. Even if I missed five time, that is a 90% hit rate. I was good, but not great. I can guarantee that it is not 95% of Marines who have trouble beyond 300 yards while prone. For those keeping track, the M16 is 5.56mm, **Crafter\_Man** is talking about a 7.62mm rifle. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/23 "2003-05-14T21:11:51Z")
Of course, I meant five misses is 94%. Spotters are part of a sniper team, and they carry laser range finders these days (I watched Discovery Channel this week). Before that they trained their asses off in estimating range, using maps and visual tools. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/24 "2003-05-14T21:22:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rhum Runner \* > \*\*A feild sniper, shooting on estimated ranges, from an improvised rest is one thing, a planned “hit” where you know exactly how far you have to shoot, and can work from a prepared position might be something else entirely. Not saying that 1500yds is easy, and maybe it is too generous, but I think the change in circumstances is worth pointing out. \*\* I may have been unclear, so let me rephrase it: While the bullet can easily go 1500 yards, _no one_ can reliably and consistently hit the torso of a man at 1500 yards using a 7.62 x 51 cartridge under “real world” conditions. “Real world” means shooting a sniper-grade rifle in the field. It does not mean using a bench-rest rifle on a bench (and with indicator flags at every 100 yards). Even _with_ bench-rest equipment and flags it is still extremely difficult… ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/25 "2003-05-14T21:26:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UncleBill \* > \*\*I can guarantee that it is not 95% of Marines who have trouble beyond 300 yards while prone. \*\* Agree! I was talking about the run-of-the-mill civilian shooters you see at your neighborhood shooting range. I should have been clearer. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/26 "2003-05-14T21:39:32Z")
Yeah, I’ll buy that one, no questions asked. I was at **7** yards Sunday at a pistol range, and I would have felt pretty safe at 15 yards with some of the guys in other lanes. Non Shooting F\*\*\*s. ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/27 "2003-05-14T21:44:05Z")
The Stinger anti-aircraft portable man-fired missile has a range of 1 to 8 kilometers & a ceiling of 10,000 feet. [http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger.htm](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger.htm) ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/28 "2003-05-14T22:29:05Z")
What the hell does that have to do with the price of tea in China? And that is the PUBLICLY REPORTED range and ceiling. Kills have been made at higher altitude in Afghanistan in the mid-80’s. ---
**Author:** ![MikeRochenelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@MikeRochenelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeRochenelle)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/29 "2003-05-15T00:51:27Z")
If you want to get an idea of how hard it is to estimate distances and shoot accurately at long range, check out this no-frills but amazingly realistic Shockwave Flash long range shooting game: [http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemo.html](http://www.shooterready.com/lrsdemo.html) I put up a (somewhat longer than I like) tutorial here: [http://www.kaosol.net/~mackys/irreg/content/2003-03/SniperGame.html](http://www.kaosol.net/~mackys/irreg/content/2003-03/SniperGame.html) The person who made this sim is on the SDMB, btw. -Ben ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/30 "2003-05-15T14:58:17Z")
I thought were were talking about snipers, UB. Why not also talk about airplane snipers? Of course, they aren’t your average sniper. Note that the OP said: “consistently hit a target? Moving or otherwise?” A plane would qualify. I hear that missle has an accurency of about 60%, would you consider that ‘consistently’? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/31 "2003-05-15T15:12:09Z")
Out of curiosity, what’s the absolute farthest a bullet can travel, assuming zero wind? Assume a rifle fired upwards at a 45[sup]o[/sup] angle and whatever gun/bullet/cartridge combination that would yield the greatest range. ---
**Author:** ![bernse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@bernse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bernse)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/32 "2003-05-15T16:47:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by handy \* > \*\*I thought were were talking about snipers, UB. Why not also talk about airplane snipers? Of course, they aren’t your average sniper. > > Note that the OP said: > “consistently hit a target? Moving or otherwise?” > > A plane would qualify. I hear that missle has an accurency of about 60%, would you consider that ‘consistently’? \*\* _Handy_, what are you talking about? What does a guy with a _guided_ missle taking out aircraft have to do with a sniper armed with a rifle? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stranger\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@The\_Stranger\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stranger_1)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/33 "2003-05-15T17:49:31Z")
This would be a good time for an “ask the Sniper” thread. (Which I will NOT do) I am a former USMC Sniper (MOS 8541). I returned to civilian status in 1996, so my knowledge is somewhat dated. There are many threads at SDMB discussing all aspects of ballistics, so I won’t re-hash that subject. From my personal experience with the M40-A1 USMC Sniper rifle I can tell you that consistent shots at 1000yd stationary targets are “do-able”, and in fact, shots at this range are part of the Sniper Training curriculum. Moving targets at 1000yds are, obviously, much more difficult. However, if your target is moving at a constant rate of speed the hit probability goes way up. The scope on the M40-A1 is a Unertl 10x with Mil-Dots. This scope was designed specifically for the USMC. The Mil-Dots allow you to do some accurate mathematical calculations in regards to your target. (Think “leading edge of target”) The current USMC Sniper rifle is the [M40-A3](http://www.marinescoutsniper.com/m40a3.html) I got out before this rifle reached the fleet. Stranger OUT Cool links for those interested: [http://www.5th-marine-snipers.com/](http://www.5th-marine-snipers.com/) [http://www.snipersparadise.com/](http://www.snipersparadise.com/) > **[SniperCountry - Your One-Stop Shop for Firearm Reviews, Guides & News](https://www.snipercountry.com/)** > > With over 500 Hand's On reviews of guns, gears and firearm accessories, SniperCountry is your one-stop shop for everything guns! [http://www.specialoperations.com/USMC/default.html](http://www.specialoperations.com/USMC/default.html) ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/34 "2003-05-15T21:54:59Z")
“What does a guy with a guided missle taking out aircraft have to do with a sniper armed with a rifle?” Hmm, don’t ask, don’t tell? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/35 "2003-05-15T23:08:02Z")
**The\_Stranger** , nice to have you aboard! I have heard that the Marines at Sniper School build (or finish) their rifles and carry them through their career. How far has the truth been stretched on this sea story? And can you define what a “consistent” group is at 1000 yds? **handy** , _that_ was funny! ---
**Author:** ![radar\_ralf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b2d939/32.png) [@radar\_ralf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/radar_ralf)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/36 "2003-05-16T00:09:33Z")
Placing three shots on a 10" circle at 1000 meters within 90 seconds is a very “do-able” feat. Using the Barrett M82A1M, a trained operator can do this all day long or until his teeth rattle out, whichever comes first. The cost of such a tool is rather prohibitive (over US$7000, IIRC), but if one has the means to enjoy the rather rarified air of truly high-power rifle shooting, the challenge of hitting a target at over a half-mile can become a consuming pastime. ---
**Author:** ![Turbo\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@Turbo\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turbo_Dog)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/37 "2003-05-16T04:19:35Z")
Sniping is as much science as it is art. For a trained/experienced long distance shooter, a moving target at 1000 M is not a big problem. For a guy off the street, a stationary target at that distance will be a huge problem. With a brief amount of training, 500 yard kill shots are actually easy. Like **UncleBill** , I got to USMC boot camp and had to shoot at a man sized target at 500 yards and didn’t think I could do it. Growing up in MN, a long hunting shot was 100 yards. But with little knowledge of wind effects and with a caliber I knew nothing about (5.56) I managed to get 6 hits out of 10 shots, as did many. But beyond 500 yards, it gets a lot more complicated. A moron cannot shoot long distance. As **The\_Stranger** will be able to tell you, the formulas involved in distance shooting are anything but simple. Temperature, humidity, wind speed, wind direction, vertical angle, target speed and direction (if moving) are the main factors that have to be taken into account. And with ballistics, nothing is linear. The difference in bullet drop for a .308 from 900 yards to 1000 yards is about 8 feet. A SWAG at distance isn’t going to cut it. I’m not big into competitive shooting, but have done it a few times. The X-ring on the 1000 yard target is 10 inches. It is not uncommon for people to hit 9 out of 10 shots in the ring. And that is with a non-customized rifle. Match shooters, the guys who use custom built rifles, can get into sudden death matches where the winner is determined by 1/4 inch after many shots. A trained/experienced shooter can consistently hit targets at 1 click, even moving. An understanding of ballistics, and being able to determine range and the environmental factors at the time are secrets to long distance shooting. Trained, it’s not only possible but routine. For the guy who has never shot a rifle, anything beyond a few hundred yards, forget it. ---
**Author:** ![Turbo\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ce73a5/32.png) [@Turbo\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turbo_Dog)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/38 "2003-05-16T04:20:56Z")
So I blew the bold coding. Don’t gimme any crap! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stranger\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@The\_Stranger\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stranger_1)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/39 "2003-05-16T05:51:22Z")
Thanks for the welcome UncleBill, I’ve been here a long time, but could never bring myself to make one of those “Hi my name is…” posts. [Sniper rifles for the USMC are built by USMC gunsmiths in Quantico, VA.](http://www.marinescoutsniper.com/m40a3.html) In regards to Snipers carrying the same weapon throughout their career…no. As long as you remained in the same unit you carried the same rifle, checked out from the battalion armory. If you were re-assigned to another unit, you picked up another weapon from the new unit’s armory. “consistent groups” as we used the term, referred to a weapon/shooter being able to hold Minute of Angle groups (MOA) at all yard lines. MOA at a 100 yds is one inch. MOA at a 1000yds is ten inches. Three shots from 100yds inside a one inch area is a consistent group. Three shots from 1000yds inside a ten inch area is a consistent group. Being able to duplicate this feat time and time again is holding consistent groups. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2003, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199/40 "2003-05-16T07:08:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by whuckfistle \* > \*\*2,430 / 331 = 7.3 seconds. Minus the time it took the bullet to get there. Adjust for altitude and air temp of course. > > \*\* Wouldn’t the passage of the bullet itself make an audible **crack**? Assuming it’s going supersonic. BTW, does the OP have any specific details on a situation where Golgo 13 made a such a 1k+ hit? With the combined powers of ballistics experts obsessed fanboys, we here could probably do a good analysis of the “realism” of the setup. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-could-a-sniper-shoot/175199.md?page=3)