# How far does "we reserve the right to refuse service" go? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 15, 2004, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616 "2004-09-15T23:53:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2004, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/1 "2004-09-15T23:53:18Z")
Some places have a sign that says “no shirt, no shoes, no service.” I suppose that could be backed up by some local health laws? But what about “suit & tie required?” On TV I’ve seen places provide you with a tie or something. But in the real world, what happens? Can they legally refuse you service? How’s that work with women? They don’t have to wear a suit & tie. Who judges whether what they’re wearing is up to snuff? What about “no colors” meaning no obvious gang affiliations? What about these night clubs where the bouncer decides whether you’re cool enough to get in? Is that legal? Where does it stop? On what grounds can I refuse you service, and when am I asking for a lawsuit? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/2 "2004-09-16T00:56:16Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Where does it stop? On what grounds can I refuse you service, and when am I asking for a lawsuit? When you refuse service based on the indivdual’s belonging to a protected class. Here are the Federally Protected classes: **Race Color Religion Creed Sex National Origin Age Disability Veteran Status** State and local governments may add other protected classes within their jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![Reepicheep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@Reepicheep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reepicheep)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/3 "2004-09-16T01:14:17Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > When you refuse service based on the indivdual’s belonging to a protected class. > > Here are the Federally Protected classes: > > **Race > Color > Religion > Creed > Sex > National Origin > Age > Disability > Veteran Status** For these purposes what is the difference between **Religion** and **Creed**? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/4 "2004-09-16T01:21:36Z")
I believe age is only a protected class when the potential victim of age discrimination is 40 or older. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/5 "2004-09-16T01:54:21Z")
> [@Reepicheep](#): > > For these purposes what is the difference between **Religion** and **Creed**? In addition to being a formal statement of religious belief, creed is _also_ defined as a system of beliefs, principles, or opinions. IMHO, that means you can’t be canned for being a libertarian or a rosicrucian or a Keynesian economist. Of course, lawyers can make their money arguing about what constitutes a creed. ---
**Author:** ![citrus\_x\_paradisi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6f9a4e/32.png) [@citrus\_x\_paradisi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/citrus_x_paradisi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/6 "2004-09-16T03:03:15Z")
> [@Reepicheep](#): > > For these purposes what is the difference between **Religion** and **Creed**? Well, the term ‘Creed’ is archaic. They’re ‘Alter Bridge’ now. ---
**Author:** ![Booker57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Booker57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Booker57)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/7 "2004-09-16T03:23:57Z")
Shoes and Shirts Required ``` Bras and Panties Optional ``` My favorite sign 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/8 "2004-09-16T06:20:09Z")
To be more helpful, the basic idea is that you can exclude someone for whatever reason you want as long as it isn’t due to one of the reasons listed above. Private citizens have a lot of leeway when it comes to what they do with their private property. (In fact, homeowners have near-complete leeway, and only give up some of that perogative when they open a public business.) I’m unsure about edge cases, like club membership. Suppose someone wanted to eat at a restaurant owned by the Ancient and Dread Brotherhood of the Bloody Cap. It seems that the restaurant only admits members in good standing of the Brotherhood, and that the Brothers will not admit people from Finland into their club. Does a Finn who wanted in have a case on the grounds of the protected class idea? ---
**Author:** ![six\_personalities](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3da27b/32.png) [@six\_personalities](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/six_personalities)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/9 "2004-09-16T09:21:33Z")
AFAIK,private clubs can choose who they wish to admit.The easy way round is this is to make it Members Only-a new potential member is admitted by the agreement of present members.As long as they didn’t say on what grounds he/she/it was denied membership then there wouldn’t be anything the unlucky refusee could do… This came up last year IIRC at a private club in the South who wished to have a whites-only prom.As a private club,they were entitled to set any restrictions they wished… ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/10 "2004-09-16T10:42:17Z")
As I understand it, if you own a restaurant or whatever, you can serve or refuse to serve who you want - it’s your property! (Subject of course to discrimination laws as noted above). ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2004, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/11 "2004-09-16T12:57:13Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > When you refuse service based on the indivdual’s belonging to a protected class. > > Here are the Federally Protected classes: > > **Race > Color** There was an issue involving this concept locally a few years ago. Here’s what happened: There’s a section of Springfield where there are a couple of major hotels, half a dozen sit-down restaurants, and about another half-dozen bars/clubs/whatever. It’s as close to Springfield’s “tourist section” as it gets. Anyway, one of the clubs had a sign on their door prohibiting jerseys, caps, baggy pants, etc. Basically anything that yer stereotypical urban black youth would wear. The local NAACP cried foul, saying that these rules were esentially banning blacks, and that the clothing regulations were a sneaky way around the Federally Protected Class statutes. Not so fast, sez the bar owner. He’d let in any black patron (over 21, of course) who wanted in, provided they were dressed according to his dress code. The issue carried on for several months, with lots of name-calling and hysteria. But in the end the bar owner prevailed. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/12 "2004-09-18T08:16:09Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > Anyway, one of the clubs had a sign on their door prohibiting jerseys, caps, baggy pants, etc. Basically anything that yer stereotypical urban black youth would wear. The local NAACP cried foul, saying that these rules were esentially banning blacks, and that the clothing regulations were a sneaky way around the Federally Protected Class statutes. Well that’s just dumb, and patronising. Are they saying your average black guy couldn’t put on a shirt? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/13 "2004-09-18T14:03:23Z")
Suppose I show up in your restaurant, dressed like Osama Bin Laden, and smelling like a goat dipped in horse pee. Can you refuse me service? You throw me out…so I go to the ACLU…can they sue on my behalf? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/14 "2004-09-18T14:24:04Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Suppose I show up in your restaurant, dressed like Osama Bin Laden, and smelling like a goat dipped in horse pee. Can you refuse me service? > You throw me out…so I go to the ACLU…can they sue on my behalf? Sure they can sue, anyone can sue for almost any reason. But your chances of winning appear pretty remote. I don’t see why the ACLU would take up this cause as there’s no protected class being discriminated against. ---
**Author:** ![QOFM\_Sit\_Down](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c37758/32.png) [@QOFM\_Sit\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QOFM_Sit_Down)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/15 "2004-09-18T15:48:48Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > I believe age is only a protected class when the potential victim of age discrimination is 40 or older. In Canada the age discrimination is between 18 and 65. You cannot discriminate between those ages, but under and over are fair game. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/16 "2004-09-18T16:19:50Z")
All I can say is we’ve come quite a distance since 1946-50 in Iowa City when blacks had to go to Cedar Rapids for a haircut. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2004, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-does-we-reserve-the-right-to-refuse-service-go/264616/17 "2004-09-18T21:21:15Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Some places have a sign that says “no shirt, no shoes, no service.” I suppose that could be backed up by some local health laws? But what about “suit & tie required?” On TV I’ve seen places provide you with a tie or something. But in the real world, what happens? Can they legally refuse you service? How’s that work with women? They don’t have to wear a suit & tie. Who judges whether what they’re wearing is up to snuff? When I was in college my department’s honor society took an annual trip to Chicago, part of which was lunch at a nice club with established members of the profession (student-mentor type thing). You had to wear a coat and tie to get in. The first year our society president did not have either so they loaned him one (they kept a few onhand for just such a case). Much easier than anyone making a scene because they couldn’t be admitted. In another situation, I worked a few summers at a local photocopy store. We had a sign up that said we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. One of the most heartwarming experiences I had was reminding an extremely obnoxious customer of that fact and telling her quite bluntly that we did not appreciate her attitude and if she didn’t straighten up and behave in a professional manner she could take her business elsewhere. She went from snippy and rude to polite in about ten seconds 🙂 Nothing to do with her age, religion, dress, etc., I was ready to give her the heave-ho simply for being a jerk.