# How far is too far in persuing nazis? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 14, 2017, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125 "2017-03-14T01:35:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/41 "2017-03-14T17:27:02Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Whatever his crimes the utility and optics of prosecuting and locking up a mentally incapacitated 98 year old man _today_ will not make anyone look like a hero in this. He’s basically a sack of brain dead flesh at this point, putting him on a pole and carting him around town is not going to accomplish much. Nobody’s trying to look like a hero. All they’re trying to accomplish is taking away the freedom he’s enjoyed for the past 70 years. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/42 "2017-03-14T17:59:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Don’t commit war crimes. > **[War crime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime)** > > A war crime is a violation of the laws of war that gives rise to individual criminal responsibility for actions by combatants in action, such as intentionally killing civilians or intentionally killing prisoners of war, torture, taking hostages, unnecessarily destroying civilian property, deception by perfidy, wartime sexual violence, pillaging, and for any individual that is part of the command structure who orders any attempt to committing mass killings including genocide or ethnic cleansing,... > [@](#): > > A war crime is an act that constitutes a serious violation of the law of war that gives rise to individual criminal responsibility. Examples of war crimes include intentionally killing civilians, … destroying civilian property, … and using weapons that cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering. Dresden. Tokyo. Hiroshima. Nagasaki. Are we chasing down the ~100 year old perpetrators of these war crimes? Why or why not? I think what you meant to say was “don’t lose a war”. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/43 "2017-03-14T18:24:45Z")
Are you arguing we shouldn’t prosecute _any_ war crimes? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/44 "2017-03-14T18:25:15Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Nobody’s trying to look like a hero. All they’re trying to accomplish is taking away the freedom he’s enjoyed for the past 70 years. Again, he’s basically a 98 year old vegetable at this point. You’re taking away the “freedom” to be drooling in a bed or wheelchair in society to be drooling in a bed or wheelchair in jail. Punishment should have a point, this is just like punishing a profoundly autistic person. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/45 "2017-03-14T18:28:07Z")
The prosecution of war crimes hasn’t provided equal justice. We go after some because there is an international consensus that they are war criminals and they should be pursued and prosecuted, others who committed the same are free because that is lacking. But these are not minor crimes, there’s no reason to allow all to avoid justice just because some do. Track them down to the ends of the earth, find a way to get everyone that has committed such crimes if we can. But also make sure their trials are fair. Evidence may be missing, witnesses far less than reliable, there is the potential that evidence has been tampered with over the years, the severity of their crimes cannot reduce the standards of justice either. Find them, prosecute them and judge them by the highest legal standards, but don’t forget their crimes and their victims. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/46 "2017-03-14T18:59:09Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > Are you arguing we shouldn’t prosecute _any_ war crimes? Not at all. As far as I know, this guy had nothing to do with the Holocaust, final solution, human experiments, gassing, etc. He burned a village in Poland. However, the people who burned _much larger_ villages like Tokyo or Dresden were awarded medals and lived full, free lives in their home country. And if they are no longer living, were buried with full military honors. We treated them as heroes. The only reason the guy in the OP is not being treated the same is because he was on the wrong team. That might make some sense right after the war is over and emotions are hot, but this guy is a century old and has dementia, and that war ended 72 years ago. “Wrong team” is no longer an excuse. Let him die in peace. Furthermore, the Allies made the decision early on not to prosecute war crimes they themselves took part in, such as firebombing cities and mass killing of civilians. In fact, if he had not fled to the US after the war, chances are he would not have been prosecuted at all. But while all the real evil Nazis were caught or died long ago, some 21st Century prosecutor or elected official in Poland wanted to get in on the action. So they started scraping the bottom of the barrel. But if you ask me, it’s a little late now to change the rules of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/47 "2017-03-14T19:17:40Z")
I don’t agree with the equation of Allied tactics in fighting the Nazi’s and Japanese militarists with the evils those regimes practiced in forcing that terrible war on the rest of the world. It will be debated literally forever I suppose, but I just don’t agree with the POV that morally equates them. Fortunately it’s not directly relevant here. The fair criticism of this guy’s treatment I can see is _if_ association with the Nazi’s means a different standard of finding someone fit for trial, as in able to assist in their own defense, and a different presumption ie ‘Nazi’ so it’s assumed he’s guilty when the same assumption wouldn’t be made about an alleged participant in say Stalin’s or Mao’s crimes. I also don’t agree with the common legalistic opinion nowadays that you must actually think somebody is innocent till a court finds them guilty even if you know there’s an overwhelming case against them. But in this case I don’t know that. Some of the people saying ‘f him’ may know that from other reading about the case, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/48 "2017-03-14T19:30:55Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > I don’t agree with the equation of Allied tactics in fighting the Nazi’s and Japanese militarists with the evils those regimes practiced in forcing that terrible war on the rest of the world. It will be debated literally forever I suppose, but I just don’t agree with the POV that morally equates them. Fortunately it’s not directly relevant here. To clarify my position: I absolutely agree that the Final Solution and associated atrocities were far more sinister and evil than the cavalier disregard for civilian life the Allies showed during their (conventional and nuclear) bombing raids. But as far as I know the man in the OP had nothing to do with the former, and his actual crimes were far tamer than much of the latter. A demented, century-old man, whose crimes of 70-something years ago were less atrocious than the crimes of people who most in the US would still call war heroes, doesn’t warrant extradition and life imprisonment, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/49 "2017-03-14T20:47:59Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > To clarify my position: I absolutely agree that the Final Solution and associated atrocities were far more sinister and evil than the cavalier disregard for civilian life the Allies showed during their (conventional and nuclear) bombing raids. But as far as I know the man in the OP had nothing to do with the former, and his actual crimes were far tamer than much of the latter. > > A demented, century-old man, whose crimes of 70-something years ago were less atrocious than the crimes of people who most in the US would still call war heroes, doesn’t warrant extradition and life imprisonment, in my opinion. You’ve only clarified I point of yours I understood the same way originally and simply don’t agree with. You’ve established a hierarchy where Holocaust is above area bombing but battlefield atrocities are equal or below area bombing. You believe that, I don’t agree. There’s no point to debate it here, because again it’s really not relevant to this guy’s case. If they have a legal basis to charge him as a criminal, that’s that as far as the basis for prosecuting him. ‘Tu quoque’ v. every other morally ambiguous situation in war is really not relevant, IMO. What’s relevant is just whether given that legally valid prosecution is he afforded the same protections (against trial if mentally unfit, procedural presumption of innocence) of somebody not ‘Nazi’. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/50 "2017-03-14T20:50:32Z")
I don’t care how old he is. But I do care if he is mentally incapable of participating in his own defense - no matter his age. Everyone has to get a fair trial. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/51 "2017-03-14T21:18:25Z")
I’m quite disturbed at the number of people who are baying for the blood of a man who probably isn’t competent to stand trial because “Nazi!” I get it, but most of you would be up in arms if Poland wanted to try a mentally retarded person for murder. > [@clairobscur](#): > > … I can’t see how a trial could possibly be fair after 70 years, alzheimer or not. How is he supposed to find witnesses and evidences for his defense after such a long time? In Poland, as in most places, the state has the burden of proof and the accused is entitled to the presumption of innocence. The age of the evidence will be more of a problem for the prosecution than for him. Of course, assuming he actually hid from authorities - which isn’t clear from the OP’s link despite at least one post to the contrary - that’s his fault. ---
**Author:** ![Last\_Glacial\_Maximum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bc79bd/32.png) [@Last\_Glacial\_Maximum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Last_Glacial_Maximum)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/52 "2017-03-14T22:36:22Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > [War crime - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime) > Dresden. Tokyo. Hiroshima. Nagasaki. Are we chasing down the ~100 year old perpetrators of these war crimes? Why or why not? > > I think what you meant to say was “don’t lose a war”. Good point. My father fire bombed Dresden. I wonder how many deaths he caused… Fortunately, he was on the winning side. . ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/53 "2017-03-14T22:59:47Z")
What is the normal protocol for handling a criminal case in which the defendant is mentally compromised? I mean, they don’t just say “oh well, let him go”, do they? Wouldn’t he be admitted to a mental facility/hospital of some sort and not be able to leave? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/54 "2017-03-14T23:05:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I don’t care how old he is. > > But I do care if he is mentally incapable of participating in his own defense - no matter his age. Everyone has to get a fair trial. For the record and to clarify, this is exactly my position. IF he lacks the mental capacity to defends himself, I wouldn’t favor trying him. However that is an “if” - I have no problem with an independent assessment being required before he escapes the court room. [Vincent Gigante](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Gigante)’s exist and should be checked for. But even if this were an utter travesty of a case, it _still_ wouldn’t make me even a smidge more sympathetic to Nazis in general ;). ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/55 "2017-03-14T23:09:58Z")
Leave the man alone; he’s a 98-year-old Alzheimer’s patient, for crying out loud. The crime happened in 1944; it’s now 2017. Give me a break. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2017, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/56 "2017-03-14T23:11:25Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > Leave the man alone; he’s a 98-year-old Alzheimer’s patient, for crying out loud. The crime happened in 1944; it’s now 2017. Give me a break. No. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/57 "2017-03-15T00:28:19Z")
I draw the line at resurrecting dead Nazis in order to try them, but anything short of that is fair game. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/58 "2017-03-15T01:16:47Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > I understand the idea that going after each and every Nazi That’s never actually been the idea. Having been a member of the Nazi party wasn’t even disqualifying for holding German governmental positions post-war. I’ve met an SS officer (Waffen SS; he’d commanded a Panzer Company) that was granted US citizenship and then lived the rest of his life in SW Michigan without ever hiding his wartime service. The goal always has been going after the subset of Nazis that committed war crimes. There’s no statute of limitations on pursuing those crimes if they come to light. As long as the law is applied equally to them as those who commit other crimes when it comes to issues like mental competence, being to infirm to humanely imprison, etc it should be applied. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/59 "2017-03-15T01:48:13Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > Leave the man alone; he’s a 98-year-old Alzheimer’s patient, for crying out loud. The crime happened in 1944; it’s now 2017. Give me a break. We don’t put people in jail very long for stealing a cookie. We put them in jail for much longer for more serious crimes like bank robbery or murder. One of the reasons we don’t put cookie stealers in jail for 40 years is that people might make a mistake, and they might change, so we give them a chance to admit the mistake and change their habits. The question posters in this thread should answer is: Are some crimes so serious that we can **never** make an allowance for mistakes early in life, and can **never** allow anyone to regret a decision and change their habits? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2017, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125/60 "2017-03-15T01:48:34Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I have no problem with him getting whatever little punishment he can at this point but I think it’s safe to say he won. Not really. If we drive home the message that those who engage in genocide/mass murder will be pursued to the end of their days, and it dissuades even one person from committing such acts, then acting even at this late date is worthwhile. Stick a guard outside his hospital room, let him know his life is ending in disgrace. Fine by me. \*For those who profess outrage that a war criminal could be pursued after all this time, consider how you’d feel if your child or other loved one was murdered, the killer got away and only was caught in old age. Are you sure you’d say “meh, it was in the past, let him go”? And read about [Gerald Mason](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Mason). Maybe he deserved to get away with it to the end of his days, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-is-too-far-in-persuing-nazis/782125.md?page=4)