# How far to the left is MoveOn, really? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 5, 2005, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265 "2005-01-05T20:11:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/61 "2005-01-06T19:56:21Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > I have the actual email. > If you’re willing to email me, I’ll forward it back to you. Is it copywrited or too long to post here? I was actually hoping to add it to this thread. In the meantime, I’ll send you an e-mail. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/62 "2005-01-06T21:35:52Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > You specifically mentioned me in the OP, and my criticisms of Move On were solely for their stance on national security. I’m simply reiterating those points in this thread, since they constitute the totality of the case I’ve made against them here. > > You invited me to this party, and I’m just bringing what I was asked to bring. Well, if you want to be _that_ particular about what you were asked to bring to the party, what you _specifically_ said in the other thread was that in order to avoid being labeled **as advocates of Islamic terrorism** , Dems would have to repudiate MoveOn. Since in reply to this: > [@Marley23](#): > > > [@Debaser](#): > > > > The pro position towards Islamic terrorism isn’t very desirable, but there are many on the extreme left who seem to advocate it. > > I think the Dem. position on terrorism should be to not let people on the right get away with statements like this. You said this: > [@](#): > > That would necessarily entail a renunciation of MoveOn. So now that you’ve insisted we stick with what you brought to the party: please cite something that MoveOn has published that suggests they support Islamic terrorism. What - you can’t? Guess they’re not as radical as you’ve been claiming after all. So what do we have so far? That they would have preferred defeating terrorism by the most nonviolent means possible. Pretty rad, that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/63 "2005-01-06T21:53:58Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It sounds like they are trying to silence them to me. They also say that Sinclair presenting a conservative rant without balancing with a counterpoint is “an abuse of the public airwaves.” So it is. What’s your point? > [@Debaser](#): > > This is silly because the massive majority of the media in print and television is biased to the left. 😛😛😛😛😛 > [@Debaser](#): > > When you take the most liberal people in the country and let them choose the agenda of an organization, you are going to get a fringe left organization whos goals and motives are not ones that resonate with most people. It’s funny that so many of you are so far to the left yourselves that you cannot see this. 😛 Oh, this is priceless! And you, **Debaser,** are so far to the right that you seem to think CNN and CBS and the _New York Times_ are left-wing! Which is almost as silly as thinking the Democratic Party is left-wing. You are looking at the whole left side of the American political spectrum through the wrong end of the telescope, **Debaser;** it all blends together, crucial differences are invisible to you, and the Democratic Leadership Council appears just as leftist as the Socialist Party or the Greens, and you can’t tell John Kerry from Dennis Kucinich. If you want to sample some **real** left-progressive journalism, check out Pacifica Radio! If there’s no affiliate station local to you (for which see [http://www.pacifica.org/stations/affiliates/](http://www.pacifica.org/stations/affiliates/)), you can play live streaming broadcasts on your computer speakers from the main website – [http://www.pacifica.org/](http://www.pacifica.org/) (as I type this they’re broadcasting live from the Gonzalez confirmation hearing). ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/64 "2005-01-06T22:06:48Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Oh, and this is just a flat out lie: > Congratulations! Post #5 in the thread and you’ve lied to slander another poster. Good work. :mad: What is up with this bizarre post? The examples you cite are pretty obviously, and from any objective perspective, spun to make them look more extreme than they actualy are, as E72521 did a good job of pointing out. In fact, most of your characterizations of what was there aren’t even good or complete enough to be true, making the deception, well, yours. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/65 "2005-01-06T22:08:18Z")
When I said this: > [@](#): > > The pro position towards Islamic terrorism isn’t very desirable, but there are many on the extreme left who seem to advocate it. I was making a bit of a pun on the wording of that OP. It asked “What should the Dem’s position on Islamic Terrorism be?”. I was being a bit silly and breaking it out into “pro” and “con” positions. By referring to those who are “pro” Islamic Terrorism, I was referring thinking of the people on the left who wish death upon US troops, and support the terrorists. This is something we see all too often on the SDMB. Obviously, the overwhelming majority of people, including those on the left, do not feel this way. However, there is a very vocal minority that do and they are doing a lot of damage to the credibility of all liberals. It would help if you denounced them strongly and often. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/66 "2005-01-06T22:15:21Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > What is up with this bizarre post? The examples you cite are pretty obviously, and from any objective perspective, spun to make them look more extreme than they actualy are, as E72521 did a good job of pointing out. In fact, most of your characterizations of what was there aren’t even good or complete enough to be true, making the deception, well, yours. Read my post #40. My summaries were perfectly accurate. I simply cannot understand how several of you claim that I was being deceptive. I’m just stating what Moveon’s site says. Two of the four statements I made were direct quotes. The other two were simple statements of fact that are crystal clear if you read my post #40, where I compare them. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/67 "2005-01-06T22:24:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So it is. What’s your point? My first post to the thread was challenged by several posters (Including **Apos** just now.) They seem to think that my summary of Moveon’s statements was mischaracterization or spinning. This is clearly not the case. I stepped up to defend the accuracy of my statements. Now you are asking me why I do this? Kind of circular, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > 😛😛😛😛😛 Wow. He sticks his tongue out at me. Five times he does it, no less. Thanks. When someone does something like this it’s about as close to demonstrably winning an argument as you can get on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Jake\_the\_Plumber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@Jake\_the\_Plumber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake_the_Plumber)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/68 "2005-01-06T22:28:31Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > By referring to those who are “pro” Islamic Terrorism, I was referring thinking of the people on the left who wish death upon US troops, and support the terrorists. This is something we see all too often on the SDMB. No, that is something you infer. Care to provide a few cites from GD where left-wingers are actually wishing death on US troops and victory for terrorists? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/69 "2005-01-06T22:30:40Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > He sticks his tongue out at me. I always thought the green smiley 😛 represented laughter, nothing else. But then, I still can’t decide if the orange smiley :o is blushing or yawning. Or whether the yellow smiley with the black cap and curls ;j is supposed to be a Jew or a Rastafarian. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/70 "2005-01-06T22:32:59Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > By referring to those who are “pro” Islamic Terrorism, I was referring thinking of the people on the left who wish death upon US troops, and support the terrorists. This is something we see all too often on the SDMB. I gotta call you on this. It happens once in a great while, but not “often”. Those wishing death on US troops are routinel banned. > [@](#): > > Obviously, the overwhelming majority of people, including those on the left, do not feel this way. However, there is a very vocal minority that do and they are doing a lot of damage to the credibility of all liberals. It would help if you denounced them strongly and often. You really have to give up this bit about denouncing the whackos. It’s just not practical. As long as the whackos aren’t embraced or endorsed, that’s the most anyone can really expect. Or, if you constantly rant about the whackos on one side, but not those on the other then that’s a problem. After all, how much of your time do you devote to denouncing the whackos on the right? ---
**Author:** ![Jake\_the\_Plumber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@Jake\_the\_Plumber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake_the_Plumber)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/71 "2005-01-06T22:34:03Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But then, I still can’t decide if the orange smiley :o is blushing or yawning. Or whether the yellow smiley with the black cap and curls ;j is supposed to be a Jew or a Rastafarian. We are all children of Abraham, mon. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/72 "2005-01-06T22:43:58Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > By referring to those who are “pro” Islamic Terrorism, I was referring thinking of the people on the left who wish death upon US troops, and support the terrorists. This is something we see all too often on the SDMB. Bullshit, Sparky. Or, if you know something that absolutely nobody else knows, now is the time to lay it on the table. Besides, how often is **too** often? Or, if you prefer, **all too** often? Or do you prefer to lie through your teeth? ---
**Author:** ![Jake\_the\_Plumber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@Jake\_the\_Plumber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake_the_Plumber)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/73 "2005-01-06T22:46:02Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I gotta call you on this. It happens once in a great while, but not “often”. Those wishing death on US troops are routinel banned. Not to undo all of the work that has been laid down evidencing that the left isn’t “whacko”… but how often are people wishing death on Iraqi insurgents banned? > [@](#): > > You really have to give up this bit about denouncing the whackos. It’s just not practical. As long as the whackos aren’t embraced or endorsed, that’s the most anyone can really expect. Or, if you constantly rant about the whackos on one side, but not those on the other then that’s a problem. After all, how much of your time do you devote to denouncing the whackos on the right? Once again, not to undo anything, but actually, one thing I find interesting is that the terrorists are pretty much extremist right-wingers, as much as you can fit them into our political system. I don’t think Osama is fighting for universal health care and accessable family planning… so in a sense, yea, pretty much all of us are criticizing the extreme right wing positions. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/74 "2005-01-06T22:56:18Z")
Bokononist ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2005, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/75 "2005-01-06T23:16:50Z")
> [@debaser](#): > > By referring to those who are “pro” Islamic Terrorism, I was referring thinking of the people on the left who wish death upon US troops, and support the terrorists. This is something we see all too often on the SDMB. Go ahead and name names, then. Should be easy. A Rasta smiley would have red, yellow, and green stripes on his cap, not all black. ;j is a Hasidic smiley, no problem mon. Shalom. Besides, hold your mouse over the menu and it says “happy orthodox jewish man” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/76 "2005-01-07T03:37:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Bokononist 😕 Who are you calling a Bokononist\*? And how does it apply? - – [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat's\_Cradle:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat%27s_Cradle:) > [@](#): > > The book [Kurt Vonnegut’s 1963 novel _Cat’s Cradle_] has anti-war and anti-science themes. > > The book also describes an imaginary religion, Bokononism, together with several concepts that are central to it. Amongst these are: > > karass - a group of people who, unknown to them, are working together to do God’s will > > granfalloon - a false karass, i.e. a group of people who imagine they have a connection that does not really exist > > wampeter - the central point of a karass > > foma - harmless untruths > > busy, busy, busy - words Bokononists whisper when they see an example of how interconnected everything is > > In Vonnegut’s own words: (from _Wampeters, Foma and Granfalloons_) > > Dear Reader: The title of this book is composed of three words from my novel Cat’s Cradle. A wampeter is an object around which the lives of many otherwise unrelated people may revolve. The Holy Grail would be a case in point. Foma are harmless untruths, intended to comfort simple souls. An example: “Prosperity is just around the corner.” A granfalloon is a proud and meaningless association of human beings. Taken together, the words form as good an umbrella as any for this collection of some of the reviews and essays I’ve written, a few of the speeches I made. > > Perhaps tired of what other religions have to offer, a number of people have professed themselves to be Bokononists. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/77 "2005-01-07T04:21:01Z")
I was referring to the smilie, misinterpreted as a Rastafarian Lubovitcher. ---
**Author:** ![Wrath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ee7513/32.png) [@Wrath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrath)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/78 "2005-01-07T04:31:28Z")
From [this thread:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=294152&highlight=insurgents+outrage) > [@rfgdxm](#): > > I do support Iraqi insurgents killing US troops. So yes, it happens, and there was nary a peep from anyone of the left denouncing that statement. ---
**Author:** ![Jake\_the\_Plumber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@Jake\_the\_Plumber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake_the_Plumber)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/79 "2005-01-07T05:40:10Z")
> [@Wrath](#): > > From [this thread:](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=294152&highlight=insurgents+outrage) > > So yes, it happens, and there was nary a peep from anyone of the left denouncing that statement. I believe the full quote was, “Huh??? I do support Iraqi **insurgents** killing US troops. By what sane definition of “terrorist” is locals killing the troops of an invading army? Terrorists strike at civilians, and not armed, enemy troops that are invaders. As for US troops, I suport them by saying the should be pulled out of Iraq. They don’t belong there.” (bolding original) ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2005, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265/80 "2005-01-07T07:32:53Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Is it copywrited or too long to post here? I was actually hoping to add it to this thread. In the meantime, I’ll send you an e-mail. It is rather long and under copyright. Did you email me? But the closest thing to a “policy statement” in that letter would be: > [@](#): > > MoveOn includes Republicans, Greens, and independents. But all of us who are struggling for health care, clean air, decent jobs, and a sane foreign policy can agree on one thing: we’re better off with a vibrant, populist Democratic Party that’s strong enough to challenge the extreme-right Republican leadership. which isn’t really a policy statement. The rest is a request to write the state party chairs to nominate a DNC chairperson who will “use this new grassroots energy to catapult us to victory” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-to-the-left-is-moveon-really/283265.md?page=5)