# How far will the government go? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107 "2003-05-28T20:38:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![akrako1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@akrako1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akrako1)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/21 "2003-05-29T20:32:58Z")
I do find it terrifying the way the gov. has been going. The Patriot act should worry every citizen in this country. There are so many terrible things the government can do to you if they say you are a terrorist or support one. And you know what? The Patriot act doesn’t even define terrorism! The current administration is open to equating anything with terrorism. Drug Using/Dealing. They’ve alread stated it supports terrorism. How about protesting? Exercising our GODDAM DEMOCRACY! Well, they’ve already stated that protesting supports terrorism. Even questioning the infaliability of the president is ‘supporting terrorism’. What’s next? How about expressing your views on an Internet forum? Protected? My ass… The FBI can now investigate any group, any orginization, any site, without ANY cause. They can search your house without even letting you know they were there. And you folks NOT talking out bombs over the phone, I hope you don’t discover an interest in Islam and decide to check out a book from your public library. And if you just happen to also be a farmer, and check out a book on fertilizer - you may just end up in a cell, with no one knowing where you are, no phone call, no lawyer, no constitutional protections. Gee that’d be fun. While in your cell, look next to you at the black kid caught with the dime bag, or the protester, and you can then decide the government has gone too far. Unfortunatly, no one will hear you. Guinastasia - I find it equally disturbing the Iran-Contra folks are all over this administration. Poindexter running the TIA system! That’s about at terrifying as you can get. Whenever I am engaged in this type of discussion, I always think back to a old German friend of mine - who lived thru WWII. He said that now I know what it feels like - to have a leader illegally come to power, manipulate the public thru fear, invade other coutries unprovoked - and we have no power to do anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/22 "2003-05-30T05:45:04Z")
Last time I checked, we still have an election in November 2004. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/23 "2003-05-30T14:43:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by akrako1 \* > And you know what? The Patriot act doesn’t even define terrorism! Have you actually read it or are you just regurgitating what other people have said? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by akrako1 \* > The current administration is open to equating anything with terrorism. Drug Using/Dealing. Anything else? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by akrako1 \* > How about protesting? Exercising our GODDAM DEMOCRACY! Well, they’ve already stated that protesting supports terrorism. Really? Because there sure seemed like there were a lot of protests during the war. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by akrako1 \* > Whenever I am engaged in this type of discussion, I always think back to a old German friend of mine - who lived thru WWII. He said that now I know what it feels like - to have a leader illegally come to power, manipulate the public thru fear, invade other coutries unprovoked - and we have no power to do anything about it. \*\* Sure…whatever…at least Hitler improved Germany’s economy. If Bush doesn’t do something about ours, you aren’t going to have to worry about him next year. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/24 "2003-05-30T19:55:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*Isn’t that an implicit aspect of the “freedom” part? > > I mean, Saddam Hussein could have told everyone in Iraq that they had “freedom of speech” and could say whatever negative things they wanted to about his government, but if Joe Iraqi started to utter a dissenting sentence and found a heavily-armed Republican Guard looming over his shoulder, Joe might decide to shut up and stay alive instead. > > “Freedom of speech” _should_ include the “warm and fuzzy” feeling that you won’t face retribution for exercising that freedom. \*\* Define “retribution.” If retribution means imprisonment, then relax. You ALREADY have the right to say anything you want without worrying about going to jail. On the other hand, if “retribution” simply means “consequences,” you’re being foolish. There are ALWAYS consequences for what we say. If we’re not prepared to face those consequences, we should keep our mouths shut. You tell me, rjung: didn’t John Rocker have a right to say whatever he wanted about gays and minorities? Didn’t Trent Lott have a right to say what a great President segregationist Strom Thurmond would have been? Of course! And neither man went to jail for what he said. But both lost their jobs, and both had to endure months of mockery, ridicule and scorn. And both had to face the fact that there’s a price to pay when you say things that people find offensive. If you choose to insult President Bush, you risk having conservatives call you a disloyal America-hater. And if I choose to express my opinions (on a host of subjects), I risk someone calling me a fascist pig. That’s life! Michael Moore can say anything he wants about America, but his audience is equally free to boo him off the stage. Vijay Singh can say whatever he wants about women golfers, but his sponsors are equally free to cut off ties with him. The Dixie Chicks can say whatever they like about the President, but their fans are equally free to send them nasty notes. If you don’t like that, tough. The First Amendment protects us from the government, but it doesn’t guarantee no one will ever hurt our feelings. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/25 "2003-05-30T22:02:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astorian \* > If retribution means imprisonment, then relax. You ALREADY have the right to say anything you want without worrying about going to jail. Given John Ashcroft at the Justice Department, this freedom doesn’t look as solid as I’d like it to be. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, if “retribution” simply means “consequences,” you’re being foolish. There are ALWAYS consequences for what we say. If we’re not prepared to face those consequences, we should keep our mouths shut. Sure, but there are different degrees of “consequences”, and not all of them should be treated equally. [ul] [li]If Michael Moore complains about George W. Bush and gets a heated response from some redneck who overhears him, that’s fine with me.[/li][li]If Michael Moore complains about George W. Bush and finds himself blacklisted from Holiday Inn hotels, that’s a warning sign.[/li][li]If Michael Moore complains about George W. Bush, gets shot by some nut for being a “traitor,” and the nut gets away scot-free, that’s a _big_ problem.[/li][/ul] > [@](#): > > If you choose to insult President Bush, you risk having conservatives call you a disloyal America-hater. I wouldn’t be worried if I knew the conservatives would limit their responses to mere talk. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/26 "2003-05-30T22:40:55Z")
You’re “afraid” to exercise your freedom of speach? Because of what George Bush might do to you? Excuse me, but I find that extremely hard to believe. I have absolutely no fear of criticizing government officials and experiencing retribution because I did so. How about his: “George Bush is an intellectually incurious mediocrity who only achieved office because of name recognition.” Now, what is going to happen to me because I said that? What consequences should I be afraid of? This “I’m afraid!” “I’m afraid!” talk is simply pathetic. You face no consequences for expressing your paranoid fantasies. Well, except that by expressing them, other people might DISAGREE with you. And you are afraid of people who disagree with you. If you feel that your right to free speach includes the right to shut up everyone who disagrees with you then you are quite wrong. This is really a form of wish fulfillment. Post about how afraid you are of President Bush and how you’ll be persecuted for your brave stand. Of course nothing will happen to you. You just WISH it would, because that would prove to everyone how eeeeeevvvvviiiiiiillllll Bush is! He’s persecuting me for my political opinions! Oh, wait, no he’s not. You’re just pretending. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/27 "2003-05-30T22:56:30Z")
Lemur: As I said earlier, it appears that many people **want** to have this fear, as it better validates their dislike of the administration. Hey, whatever turns you on! ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/28 "2003-05-31T00:39:56Z")
Please, people, a modicum of reason here. So far, nobody here has presented a credible reason to believe that the Big Bad Gov’mint is going to break down your door and haul you off to the clink, or anything that even resembles a limiting of existing freedoms. The Patriot Act? Please. Anybody who’s actually read through it will see it’s not quite the bugaboo it’s made out to be by the left and the libertoids. It has a few tweaks in the way intelligence, and parts of it actually _curtail_ some of the previous abilities of the government. It’s mostly just applications of common sense to our intelligence gathering methods. You can say pretty much whatever you want, within reason. If you come on here and post a detailed description of how you plan to assassinate Bush, then yeah, you may get in trouble. But you can crwo about how Bush is a cretin and a tyrant all day long, and nobody’s going to do squat. At least nobody from the government. Others of us may mock you, but that’s what free speech is all about. 🙂 Jeff ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/29 "2003-05-31T00:41:16Z")
D’oh! The above sentence should’ve read: “It has a few tweaks in the way intelligence _is gathered_, and parts of it actually curtail some of the previous abilities of the government.” Jeff ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/30 "2003-05-31T01:04:42Z")
Read what can happen Jeff…can and did, when an intelligence agency ran wild. [Cointelpro](http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/COINTELPRO/cointelpro.html) ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/31 "2003-05-31T02:19:44Z")
I think it’s right and well to watch the government with a critical eye. And if the government does things to make you feel afraid, then it is the right thing to be afraid and act accordingly. While the good faith of **John Mace** is admireable and while there is a good chance that in the end he’ll turn out to be right, there is also the possibility that people who are afraid now, are so for a good reason. The World War II comparison was done in this thread and once someone responded with “When we get to 6 million, you can start complaining!” However, is that really a good line to draw or shouldn’t democratic leaders be held to stricter guidelines? I for one believe that the public needs to lash out with all the legal means at their disposal at democratic leaders, who are out of line, to prevent something like that from ever happening again. Always saying “Hey, he isn’t as bad as Hitler.” until one day you might wake up and say “Oops, ok, now he is as bad, maybe it’s time to do something _now_” just won’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/32 "2003-05-31T02:45:11Z")
And hey-we don’t even have to be bad like Hitler-after all, we could be like that one nation, that started putting the Japanese in camps because they were so afraid they’d sabotage the country. Oh wait! That was us! ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/33 "2003-05-31T02:52:16Z")
{b]Guin\*\*…But we didn’t do it to the German Americans. Which made it all that much worse. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/34 "2003-05-31T03:01:19Z")
Only to second base, on the first date. And then you have to get it pretty liquored up first. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/35 "2003-05-31T03:03:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > Given John Ashcroft at the Justice Department, this freedom doesn’t look as solid as I’d like it to be. > > Sure, but there are different degrees of “consequences”, and not all of them should be treated equally. > > [ul] > [li]If Michael Moore complains about George W. Bush and gets a heated response from some redneck who overhears him, that’s fine with me.[/li][li]If Michael Moore complains about George W. Bush and finds himself blacklisted from Holiday Inn hotels, that’s a warning sign.[/li][li]If Michael Moore complains about George W. Bush, gets shot by some nut for being a “traitor,” and the nut gets away scot-free, that’s a _big_ problem.[/li][/ul] > > I wouldn’t be worried if I knew the conservatives would limit their responses to mere talk. Why are 2 and 3 problems. Let’s say I’m the majority shareholder and chief decision maker for Holiday Inn worldwide. If I say Moore doesn’t stay in my hotels for his comments, that’s it. What the bloody Og does that have to do with the government restricting free speech. Same with 3, unless JA walks into court (I’m being figurative here for all you literalists) and tells the jury let him go or else. **John Mace** nailed it, some people want fear to justify their hatred of an administration. Four years ago, conservatives were ranting and raving every time Clinton took a crap and now it’s the liberals (feel free to substitute Republicans and Democrats respectively) turn to whine about every misplaced comma. For the record, I’m neither liberal nor conservative, Republican nor Democrat, and during the last presidential election my feeling was that neither man was going to make a decent president. I am, however, a common-sensist, and the lack of that in political discussions worries me much more than dumb, idiotic, and/or downright dangerous thing this or the previous administration has done. **rjung** , what if it’s not a conservative fruitcake offing Moore? What if it’s a liberal fruitcake taking a preemptive strike at your local Republican headquarters, and a Clinton-appointed judge lets him off scot-free? Equally ludicrous ‘what-ifs’, IMNSHO. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/36 "2003-05-31T03:28:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reeder \* > \*\*Read what can happen Jeff…can and did, when an intelligence agency ran wild. > > [Cointelpro](http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/COINTELPRO/cointelpro.html) \*\* Do you lap that up just like every conservative lapped up every Clinton allegation? Has the FBI abused its power in the past? Yes. Is the FBI abusing its power right now? Probably. Will the FBI abuse its power in the future? Most likely. _(FBI is a proxy for any U.S. intel gathering agency above)_ Is this systemic? I doubt it (at least since the days of Hoover). Will it ever be systemic again? It’s a possibility, but the safeguards are going to have to really fail in order to do so. Think about this…if all this really did happen, would the boogeyman let that sight remain up? ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/37 "2003-05-31T03:44:10Z")
That link is not allegations. It’s fact. The power to do things like cointelpro were capped until the Bush administration loosened the reins again. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/38 "2003-05-31T03:59:00Z")
And Vincent Foster was murdered by the Clinton Administration because he knew too much. And let’s not even venture into the realm of ghosts and NDEs, all facts themselves… ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/39 "2003-05-31T04:14:04Z")
So you are sdaying there was no cointelpro?? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/40 "2003-05-31T07:57:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by D\_Odds \* > **rjung** , what if it’s not a conservative fruitcake offing Moore? What if it’s a liberal fruitcake taking a preemptive strike at your local Republican headquarters, and a Clinton-appointed judge lets him off scot-free? Since we’re talking about freedom of speech, your example of a “preemptive strike” doesn’t quite apply, methinks. My point was, is, and remains the same as before: for “freedom of speech” to have **any** meaning, the person exercising that freedom has to believe that he won’t get anything worse than a dissenting opinion for his acts. The idea of “freedom of speech” is to encourage the formation of a marketplace of ideas, and the only proper form of countering an idea you disagree with is with ideas of your own – _not_ by censoring, imprisoning, harming, restricting, or otherwise intimidating the person holding the ideas in question. “I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend your right to say it,” and all that. And while I don’t seriously believe the Bush Administration is currently targeting “dissenting” Americans for future retribution, I _do_ believe there are individual nutjobs out there who see nothing wrong with exacting payback from folks who happen to express an opinion they disagree with… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107.md?page=3)