# How far will the government go? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107 "2003-05-28T20:38:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 2\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/41 "2003-05-31T10:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*…And while I don’t seriously believe the Bush Administration is currently targeting “dissenting” Americans for future retribution, I _do_ believe there are individual nutjobs out there who see nothing wrong with exacting payback from folks who happen to express an opinion they disagree with… \*\* He wasn’t American, but the assassin of Pim Fortyn comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107/42 "2003-05-31T12:17:04Z")
Brutus: > [@](#): > > So not only do you need freedom of speech, you need to feel warm and fuzzy while expressing it? Is that all that freedom is to you – a warm and fuzzy feeling? Cellardoor: > [@](#): > > How could you feel uncomfortable about expressing your political beliefs where i live im up to my nose in loud mouth liberals who shove their thoughts down my throat. Gee, why would you allow them to do that? > [@](#): > > Is it that you’ve never known, that you’ve only recently come to care and follow the issues, or that due to the press pushing its freedom you now know more than ever before? Never known what? That the government could be dangerous? I’ve been politically active for 39 years now. The Patriot Act and The Patriot Act II are recent, thus making it hard to know about them when I was 21. John Mace: > [@](#): > > Sorry, but it isn’t going to happen. You’re going to have to continue harboring your dislike without the outlandish justification that you seem to crave. Apology accepted provided you discontinue the audacious pretense that you are an authority on my motives. John Mace: > [@](#): > > And if Bush finishes his 8 yrs as president and neither you nor any of your family or friends are even so much as bullied in any way by the gov’t will you admit that your fear was ungrounded? No, I care about the rights of all citizens and some of those rights are already being violated. Don’t you care about all of us or is it just yourself and your circle? John Mace: > [@](#): > > What specifically are you afraid will happen to you? Maybe like some others in this country, I will be imprisoned without charges for an indefinite period of time and denied access to counsel. That’s probably worst case scenario. On the less threatening end, I fear the invasion of my privacy. Laws already on the books allow that now. MSmith (quoting rjung): > [@](#): > > ## “Freedom of speech” should include the “warm and fuzzy” feeling that you won’t face retribution for exercising that freedom. > > No it is not. You have every right to say whatever you like. You do not have the right to force the rest of us to hold your hand and say “wow…that’s a great idea”. I think that rjung is talking about _feelings_ – the security of knowing that her rights won’t be violated. You are talking as if that required some sort of nurturing action on your part. MSmith: > [@](#): > > Sure…whatever…at least Hitler improved Germany’s economy. Except for all those dead people.:rolleyes: Guinastasia, thanks for the link. Haven’t you heard the good news about SOA? They shut it down, changed the name and reopened. I’m sure that’s taken care of all the problems. (I can’t believe my tax money supports training people in torture techniques! And this travesty does not rest with Bush alone.) astorian: > [@](#): > > There are ALWAYS consequences for what we say. If we’re not prepared to face those consequences, we should keep our mouths shut. You win the prize for the most chilling comment on the thread. Lemur: > [@](#): > > You’re “afraid” to exercise your freedom of speach? Because of what George Bush might do to you? Excuse me, but I find that extremely hard to believe. No, I’m afraid of what the government might do to a free people, including me. Lemur: > [@](#): > > And you are afraid of people who disagree with you. If you feel that your right to free speach includes the right to shut up everyone who disagrees with you then you are quite wrong. Not at all. I just reserve the right to disagree back. I don’t believe in censorship – and that applies from one end of the spectrum to the other. I did not intend to imply that I was afraid of words or the disapproval of my fellow citizens. I can see that I should have phrased that more carefully. John Mace: > [@](#): > > As I said earlier, it appears that many people want to have this fear, as it better validates their dislike of the administration. What has led you to believe that people _want_ to feel this way? There is that strange mind-reading again. And my dislike of this administration doesn’t need additional validation. ElJeffe: > [@](#): > > It’s mostly just applications of common sense to our intelligence gathering methods. Our views on intelligence gathering methods vary from person to person. And, this doesn’t even address what’s in Patriot Act II – beginning its journey through a Congress near you. ElJeffe: > [@](#): > > But you can crow about how Bush is a cretin and a tyrant all day long, and nobody’s going to do squat. Ooooh! You _have_ been reading my posts! 😉 I just want that freedom to continue. Diogenes, I am a member of Amnesty International. 🙂 To all of you, I truly hope that my fears are groundless. The Bush Administration is very secretive and that doesn’t pass the sniff test for me. And that’s only one of many things that makes me uneasy about what the future may hold. There may have been worse administrations, but I haven’t lived during any of them. I thought that Nixon was bad enough. I watched him teeter on the brink of declaring martial law on the weekend of October 20, 1973. But I think that Bush (with his buddies) has the potential for being much worse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-far-will-the-government-go/178107.md?page=2)