# How Fascism Starts **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 6, 2006, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211 "2006-03-06T02:18:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/61 "2006-03-06T21:09:49Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Navy Uniform Regulations, Chapter 1, Section 4, Paragraph 4: > > [Link.](http://buperscd.technology.navy.mil/bup_updt/upd_CD/BUPERS/Unireg/chapter1.pdf) OK, thank you for correcting me. That brings us right back around to whether what Kerry was wearing could correctly be termed a “uniform of the naval service.” I say not, for reasons explained above. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2006, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/62 "2006-03-06T21:40:02Z")
Evidently the faschists have prevented the free expression of ideas in that forum. 🙂 Or, the military asked nicely, and had the two servicemen protected from their ill considered partisanship. Tris ---
**Author:** ![dre2xl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@dre2xl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dre2xl)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2006, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/63 "2006-03-06T22:06:42Z")
While not military, my hometown’s local JROTC team has been invited to many a local Democratic ceremony to present colors. Can’t imagine why it’d be any more illegal for actual military to participate, and indeed, a Google search shows that National Guard has presented colors at many political events. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2006, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/64 "2006-03-06T23:20:52Z")
If the military presents the flag at a NY Yankees baseball game, is that an official military endorsement of the Yankees? ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/65 "2006-03-07T02:24:13Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > Having soldiers in uniform participating in partisan political activities is a very bad idea. Soldiers in uniform at political rallies are a short step from soldiers in uniform campaigning for office. Would that still be no big deal to you guys? Well, let’s look at this in a not-so-literal light. I can see a person wearing a military uniform if he’s active duty while campaigning for office. You’re making a huge leap in equating it to Hitler, but I’ll conced the uniform part of it in this case. If a person can’t wear a military uniform that he or she has earned and is actively in service, then whouldn’t it be reasonable to declare any mention of military service _verboten_? What I mean is, if military uniforms should be banned from politics, shouldn’t military service be banned as well? Why is it fascist to wear a uniform, but acceptable to labor on about actually serving? I again read about W and Reagan not being fit for Office because they didn’t get shot at by a foreign army. It’s a less than subtle jab that Kerry took pictures in Viet Nam. Or Cambodia. Or wherever the hell he was on Christmas. A former military veteran that rose to lead a nation? I could make a connection there, but I won’t. Christ, even I’m not that partisan. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/66 "2006-03-07T03:26:33Z")
I wish you’d just come out and say it **duffer**. (Because I didn’t understand your last post in the least) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/67 "2006-03-07T08:33:46Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > And I was beginning to think only conservatives couldn’t take a joke. Hey c’mon, I was just fighting ignorance. * * * I’m guessing that most of us here agree that the military shouldn’t become the propaganda tool of one party or another. Last month Robert Novack, a right wing reporter with close ties to the regime currently occupying the White House, dropped this firecracker: > [@Sometimes Federal Witness Robert Novack](#): > > …the Bush administration is going directly to the public with its war message. Raul Damas, associate director of political affairs at the White House, has been on the phone directly to **Republican county chairmen** to arrange **local speeches** by **active duty military personnel** to talk about their experiences in Iraq. Emphasis added. I hope that Mr. Damas was not suggesting that local Republican hacks hoodwink enlisted soldiers into appearing in uniform and breaking regulations. That would be unethical. [http://www.lincolntribune.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3868](http://www.lincolntribune.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3868) Of course free speech can be a wonderful thing… ---
**Author:** ![Dubious\_Weasle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b782af/32.png) [@Dubious\_Weasle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dubious_Weasle)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/68 "2006-03-07T10:21:02Z")
First things first. > [@Muad'Dib](#): > > Yes, but is a flight-suit a “uniform”? It depends. Some flight suits are uniforms some are not. The flight suits worn military members on duty are most definitely uniforms. However, “flight suit” just defines the purpose of the outfit. Likewise, the military has coveralls that are uniforms but just because something is a coverall it isn’t automatically a uniform. In any case it’s a moot point. The President is a civilian. He is in charge of the military but not a member of it. The uniform regulations wouldn’t apply. Political backlash aside, civilians can pretty much wear any uniform to any event they please [other than actual impersonation]. Finally, to the OP. If these marines knowingly participated at a political rally/fund raiser, while in uniform they’ve earned some disciplinary action. It doesn’t matter whether they were “just receiving an award” or not. Likewise, military members showing up at an anti-war event in uniform to receive an award would also be in violation. As an aside to a poster who mentioned that anti-war isn’t necessarily _partisan_ I would like to mention that while this is true, an anti-war event is certainly political which is sufficient to violate the regulations. Finally, if the two individuals received prior permission from their command then this would let them off the hook. However, I would be highly dubious of the judgement of any commander who would grant such a waiver, knowing the partisan nature of the event. There’s a reason for that regulation; the military should not be used for political points. Regardless of whether it was intended or not, the function was benefiting from association. Association, innocently intended or not, is the big issue here and why we have this regulation. Now, to address the OP. No this isn’t how Fascism starts. This is a minor issue in which two marines either had the poor judgement to attend a political event in violation of regulations, were ignorant of the partisan nature of the event and violated the regulations unintentionally, or were allowed to attend by their command. The first will probably resort in minor disciplinary action. The second will probably result, if anything, in a stern talking to and remedial review of the UCMJ. The latter is the one that bugs me a little in that it would seem to show piss poor judgement by the command, unless of course they too were ignorant in regards to the partisan nature of the event; which brings us back to number two… and so on. In conclusion, this is a non-issue and even if disciplinary action results, we’re not likely nor should we hear about it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/69 "2006-03-07T14:54:01Z")
A couple of posters above have alluded to a very good question: What was the actual purpose of the event in question? Was it a political rallying event or was it, essentially, a club dinner whose purpose was to be a venue/occasion to trot out awards for those who’ve helped the club itself or distinguished themselves in some other way for the community? ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/70 "2006-03-07T15:32:30Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > A couple of posters above have alluded to a very good question: What was the actual purpose of the event in question? Was it a political rallying event or was it, essentially, a club dinner whose purpose was to be a venue/occasion to trot out awards for those who’ve helped the club itself or distinguished themselves in some other way for the community? The Lincoln Day Dinner, described by an attendee of the event, is a kick off to the political [season.](http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060304/NEWS01/603040311&SearchID=73237729319283) Now they are [claiming](http://www.coloradoan.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060307/NEWS01/603070304/1002) that the Marine showed up in uniform on his own. > [@](#): > > “(The soldiers) were not there endorsing a candidate, and they were not speaking,” said Nancy Hunter, chairwoman of the Larimer County Republicans. Hunter said the organization seeks out Iraq and Afghanistan veterans each year to honor at the Lincoln Day Dinner. Forsyth attended the dinner as someone’s date and was asked at the last minute to be honored, Hunter said. I’m going to give the dubious smiley :dubious: to the claim that it was just lucky hapenstance that two marines in their dress blues took it upon themselves to attend. Sgt. Forsyth couldn’t be reached for comment, so we don’t know if the date claim is true. If the two soldiers showed up on thier own to the event, then we can safely assume that they didn’t go through the PAO, and they’ll be looking at some trouble. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/71 "2006-03-07T22:48:47Z")
Interestingly enough, the copy and save functions are disabled, too. I think someone decidedly did NOT have permission to be there, and someone else is hoping to make sure nothing comes of it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2006, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/72 "2006-03-07T22:54:07Z")
Heck, Frank Sinatra and his boss went the Republican National Convention in uniform. They couldn’t stop Lawrence Harvey from plugging Jessica Fletcher, though. Write _that_ murder, bitch! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/73 "2006-03-08T02:05:23Z")
So this is how fascism starts? I can see the soldiers are in trouble but I would not be too concerned about this. The real baby steps to fascism happens when the party in power attempts to pass laws to make a possible illegal move by the ruler legal after the fact. Even better, do not investigate to check if the wire tapping was illegal . [http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1698034&page=1](http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1698034&page=1) ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/74 "2006-03-08T03:07:20Z")
For a true-life story on how Facism really starts, try and find [_The Wave_](http://imdb.com/title/tt0083316/) on video. (Also a [book](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0440993717/sr=8-1/qid=1141786967/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-9732313-9538523?%5Fencoding=UTF8)) ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/75 "2006-03-08T03:24:18Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > So this is how fascism starts? I can see the soldiers are in trouble but I would not be too concerned about this. > > The real baby steps to fascism happens when the party in power attempts to pass laws to make a possible illegal move by the ruler legal after the fact. Even better, do not investigate to check if the wire tapping was illegal . > > [http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1698034&page=1](http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=1698034&page=1) Bush has less than 2 years left in office. Frankly I’m ashamed we aren’t goose-stepping after over 6 years of his rule. What a disgrace. How ineffectual can a NAZI be? I mean, fuck! More than 75% of the term is over and we still don’t have brownshirts looting and burning minority businesses! And the lack of gas chambers for anyone he personally and arbitrarily wants to fill make me wonder why I ever sent those donation checks. A ridiculous expectation for a leader? Apparently not so. He could do it if he wanted to. And if he was as evil as some say, he would have. That or he is evil but powerless. I can never tell around here. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/76 "2006-03-08T03:29:36Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > For a true-life story on how Facism really starts, try and find [_The Wave_](http://imdb.com/title/tt0083316/) on video. (Also a [book](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0440993717/sr=8-1/qid=1141786967/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-9732313-9538523?%5Fencoding=UTF8)) Haven’t read it, but now I’ll look for it. The movie version will have to wait. I always try to read the novel first. Based on the reviews, this sounds like like something along the lines of two of Stephen King’s novels blended together. Rage and Apt Pupil. Is that pretty close? Or is it different enough to really give it a shot? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/77 "2006-03-08T04:07:46Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Bush has less than 2 years left in office. Frankly I’m ashamed we aren’t goose-stepping after over 6 years of his rule. What a disgrace. How ineffectual can a NAZI be? I mean, fuck! More than 75% of the term is over and we still don’t have brownshirts looting and burning minority businesses! And the lack of gas chambers for anyone he personally and arbitrarily wants to fill make me wonder why I ever sent those donation checks. > > A ridiculous expectation for a leader? Apparently not so. He could do it if he wanted to. And if he was as evil as some say, he would have. > > That or he is evil but powerless. I can never tell around here. [Scott Evil] A Nazi is not the same as fascist you numbnuts. [/Scott Evil] > **[Fascism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism)** > > Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries. Opposed to anarchism, democracy, liberalism, and Marxism, fascism is placed on the far right-wing within the traditiona Fascists... > [@](#): > > Nazism differed from Fascism proper in the emphasis on the state’s purpose in serving its national ideal on the basis of a national race, specifically the social engineering of culture to the ends of the greatest possible prosperity for German race at the expense of all else and all others. In contrast, Mussolini’s Fascism held that cultural factors existed to serve the state, and that it wasn’t necessarily in the state’s interest to serve or engineer any of these particulars within its sphere. The only purpose of government under Fascism was to uphold the state as supreme above all else, and for these reasons it can be said to have been a governmental statolatry. Where Nazism spoke of “Volk”, Fascism talked of “State”. > > While Nazism was a metapolitical ideology, seeing both party and government as a means to achieve an ideal condition for certain chosen people, fascism was a squarely anti-socialist form of statism that existed as an end in and of itself. The Nazi movement, at least in its overt ideology, spoke of class-based society as the enemy, and wanted to unify the racial element above established classes. The Fascist movement, on the other hand, sought to preserve the class system and uphold it as the foundation of established and desirable culture, although this is not to say that Fascists rejected the concept of social mobility. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/78 "2006-03-08T04:33:44Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Haven’t read it, but now I’ll look for it. The movie version will have to wait. I always try to read the novel first. > > Based on the reviews, this sounds like like something along the lines of two of Stephen King’s novels blended together. Rage and Apt Pupil. Is that pretty close? Or is it different enough to really give it a shot? This time it’s safe to watch the movie first. The book was a novelization of the movie. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/79 "2006-03-08T04:39:52Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > This time it’s safe to watch the movie first. The book was a novelization of the movie. Yeah, but the book is easier to find. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2006, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211/80 "2006-03-08T04:43:53Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > Yeah, but the book is easier to find. Yeah, it probably is. I think I read the book first. And then we watched the movie in my history class when we were studying McCarthyism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fascism-starts/347211.md?page=5)