# How fast can the US military attack...a US city? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 23, 2008, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641 "2008-01-23T07:34:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/1 "2008-01-23T07:34:43Z")
As you can probably guess, I just got back from seeing “Cloverfield.” I don’t think it constitutes a spoiler to say that the US military takes a role in the story, which takes place in New York City. My question is just this: how fast _can_ the military attack something, in force, in the continental US? And a conventional attack, at that? I mean, I can imagine that it might actually be faster to launch a _nuclear_ strike on a US target—missiles and nuclear bombers would probably be more ready to be launched on a moment’s notice than conventional aircraft, or armored units. (Though I imagine the National Guard’s response time wouldn’t be too shabby. But that’s not my area of expertise.) So…any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/2 "2008-01-23T07:46:23Z")
National guard could be there really quick, unless it’s just a bunch of drowning black people they have to save, in which case it’ll take a few days. I’m sure jets could be launched in minutes. Some force could probably be helicoptered in pretty quickly, probably within a few hours. No idea how long it would take regular troops with a bunch of tanks and fancy equipment, though. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/3 "2008-01-23T11:59:42Z")
I don’t know if the war in Iraq has changed things, but I was once told that the 82nd Airborne always has a brigade ready for immediate deployment to anywhere in the world in 24 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/4 "2008-01-23T13:24:12Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] National guard could be there really quick, unless it’s just a bunch of drowning black people they have to save, in which case it’ll take a few days. I’m sure jets could be launched in minutes. Some force could probably be helicoptered in pretty quickly, probably within a few hours. No idea how long it would take regular troops with a bunch of tanks and fancy equipment, though. [/QUOTE] [Armchair General] Yup. National Guard would activate first under Title 32 USC, due to the fact the governor of New York would and can act faster than the Federal-level National Command Authorities. They may be Federalized later into the active duty chain of command. . . Next, the Air Force would be the first active duty units to participate simply because they can literally fly that fast–most likely F-16s out of the 177th FW (Atlantic City) and A-10s from the 103rd/104th (CT/MA respectively). Army from Fort Dix would be the next as they’re only a couple of hours away in New Jersey, but I don’t know if they have the projectable infantry/mechanized units to fight a protracted battle–IIRC, it’s more of a training base. Next would be the 10th Mountain from Fort Drum, but there quite a few hours away up in New York State. Even if the 82nd or 101st were to mobilize, I believe they’d have to fly into McGuire AFB (next door to Fort Dix) and ride into NYC, simply because tall buildings are not conducive to drop zones. Artillery? I’m not sure where that would come from . . . most probably the organic units within the 10th. Naval support? Hrm, don’t know. . . [/Armchair General] I’ll have to look through my stuff to see what I’m missing. This website may help y’all a little though: [US Armed Forces Order of Battle (not gov’t site)](http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9059/usaob.html) Tripler Yup, it would most likely be the National Guard to start the fight. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/5 "2008-01-23T13:29:26Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] National guard could be there really quick, unless it’s just a bunch of drowning black people they have to save, in which case it’ll take a few days. [/QUOTE] The National Guard troops are under the command and control of their local state Governor unless “federalized” (i.e., called up by the federal government). It takes (or used to take) a request from the state governor to get the president to send troops from other state National Guard units. Maybe the “drowning Black people” should vote for a responsible mayor and governor next election? ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/6 "2008-01-23T13:41:27Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] National guard could be there really quick, unless it’s just a bunch of drowning black people they have to save, in which case it’ll take a few days [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Monty] Maybe the “drowning Black people” should vote for a responsible mayor and governor next election? [/QUOTE] You two are naughty. How fast could a nuclear strike be ordered on a US city? I imagine it would take a lot longer to convince the President of the necessity of an attack than to reaim a missile or two. Long enough that the Governor could ask the national guard to head down the road and see what’s going on before the President can do their things with the nuclear football? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/7 "2008-01-23T13:55:47Z")
I understand that the many large and fortress-like Armories were built in many Eastern US cities precisely so that the National guard _could_ quickly and effectively attack those cities. My understanding is that those armories were established in the wake of the “Great Uprising” of 1877, AKA “The Great Railroad Strike of 1877” : [http://home.earthlink.net/~trolleyfan/image\_24.html](http://home.earthlink.net/~trolleyfan/image_24.html) [Great Railroad Strike of 1877 - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Railroad_Strike) I first read of this in Larry Gonick’s “Cartoon History of the US”, where he calls it “a shamefully underreported” bit of American History. It cetrtainly is. Without it, you can’t really understand the US government’s harsh treatment of unions and strikers, or its extreme fear of Communism, or why so many cities have all those big and heavy Armories. [ > [@](#): > > Even as they agreed to some worker demands, bosses were determined to never again allow workers the upper hand. “The railroads made some concessions, rescinded some wage cuts, but also strengthened their ‘Coal and Iron Police,’” writes van Ophem. “In several large cities, National Guard armories were constructed, with loopholes for guns.” > **[UE News Feature: The Great Strike of 1877 - Remembering a Worker Rebellion](http://www.ranknfile-ue.org/uen_1877.html)** Nowadays, of course, all of those Armories have been turned into Condos (like the one in Medford, Mass.) or Businesses or National Park Headquarters (like what’s left of the partially fire-destroyed one in Salem, MA), so you couldn’t mount a National Guard saction from one of them. ---
**Author:** ![flyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@flyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flyboy)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/8 "2008-01-23T13:59:00Z")
Also, I’m guessing that if decided, you wouldn’t drop a strategic nuke on something like that–you’d use a tactical nuke from an Air Force bomber to better pinpoint the location of the… thing. And ftr, I’m guessing the Navy would be the first people onstation if something like that ever happened. The Navy is very quick to move out and react, whereas the AF takes a bit longer since it tends to drag a much larger logistical tail along with whatever it’s deploying. I’m not saying it could provide an armed jet, but it could easily get a P-3 or Hawkeye there quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/9 "2008-01-23T15:04:24Z")
[Moderating] Ok, **Mosier** and **Monty** , let’s avoid political commentary, please. Please stick to the substance of the OP. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/10 "2008-01-23T15:38:11Z")
Judging from 9/11, it would take several hours to get an overflight from a jet and a day to get other units in. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/11 "2008-01-23T16:09:34Z")
[QUOTE=Tripler] Even if the 82nd or 101st were to mobilize, I believe they’d have to fly into McGuire AFB (next door to Fort Dix) and ride into NYC, simply because tall buildings are not conducive to drop zones. [/QUOTE] I would think the 82nd or 101st would be able to mobilize before the National Guard, because they are regular units on duty, as opposed to reserve units which would have to be called up from civilian life. Central Park is about 2-1/2 miles high by 1/2 miles wide, with varying areas of trees, lakes, roads and buildings. Probably the biggest unobstructed areas are the Great Lawn and Sheep Meadow, which are each maybe 1/4 mile by 1/8 mile. I think there is an even bigger lawn in Prospect Park in Brooklyn. Would these be acceptable for an airborne drop? Also, I don’t see why they would have to fly into Fort Dix. Couldn’t they just as easily fly into LaGuardia, Kennedy, Newark and/or Teterboro? If they can come in from helicopter, there area several small heliports around the perimeter of Manhattan, as well as Floyd Bennett Field in Brooklyn. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/12 "2008-01-23T16:43:07Z")
[QUOTE=Billdo] Also, I don’t see why they would have to fly into Fort Dix. Couldn’t they just as easily fly into LaGuardia, Kennedy, Newark and/or Teterboro? If they can come in from helicopter, there area several small heliports around the perimeter of Manhattan, as well as Floyd Bennett Field in Brooklyn. [/QUOTE] Depends on the scenario. Are we assaulting Manhattan or just occupying it like in The Seige? And against who? Are there streams of refugees cluttering up the highways? If Manhattan is defended by some enemy, there is the matter of crossing the bridges and tunnels. Personally I would send an infantry force in from New Jersey through the PATH system to secure the Lincoln tunnel because no one ever thinks of it. But if the Holland & Lincoln tunnels and the bridges are blocked, your assault force is now watching impotently from the Weehawkin heights or Williamsburg. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/13 "2008-01-23T18:08:15Z")
It would take a least a few days for any National Guard unit to form up as a cohesive unit. The units are mostly spread out in company sized elements that drill in individual armories. Most if not all of their heavy equipment is probably stored where they can train with it. For instance when I was in a tank unit (and New Jersey still had armor) the companies were spread all over the state and the tanks were in Fort Dix. Along with the ammo. Unless you want lightly armed company sized elements attacking your alien invasion piecemeal. Even in the case of drowning black people the governor would have to activate the units prior to the event if she wants an immediate response. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/14 "2008-01-23T18:08:56Z")
[QUOTE=Pushkin] You two are naughty. How fast could a nuclear strike be ordered on a US city? I imagine it would take a lot longer to convince the President of the necessity of an attack than to reaim a missile or two. Long enough that the Governor could ask the national guard to head down the road and see what’s going on before the President can do their things with the nuclear football? [/QUOTE] My bet is that they’d re-aim the missiles while they’re waiting for the President to be convinced that the attack is necessary. I don’t think a big ass monster in Manhattan would be enough by itself to convince the president to launch a nuke at NYC. I know I certainly wouldn’t launch one in his position without giving the conventional military a chance to beat it first. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/15 "2008-01-23T18:13:38Z")
From the brilliant Tuesday Morning Quarterback ( [TMQ: The All-Unwanted All-Pros - ESPN Page 2](http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/080122&sportCat=nfl) ) - see the bolded part: > [@](#): > > \*\*“Hey Guys, I’ve Got An Idea, Let’s Run Directly Toward the Monster!” \*\* OK, to watch a monster movie, you must suspend disbelief about the idea of 500-foot-tall sea monsters. But if there were such beasts, wouldn’t they be subject to laws of physics and principles of biology? Almost no explanation is given for the ultra-huge creature in “Cloverfield,” except a hint that it was disturbed by a deep-seabed experiment. So it’s a 100,000-ton sea-floor thing; Godzilla was said to weigh 20,000 tons, and the “Cloverfield” monster is a lot bigger. If this creature lived at the bottom of the ocean, why is it adapted to the substantially different pressure of the surface? Deep-sea creatures would die rapidly if brought to the surface, yet the “Cloverfield” beast strolls around Manhattan. How come the sea monster has lungs and breathes air? The creature must be an amphibian, or it could not leave the water. To possess lungs, part of its life cycle would need to occur on land, and a 100,000-ton living object in intertidal areas would, at some point in history, have been noticed. > > Even if you accept the monster-existence premise, other aspects of the movie defy reason. Two million people live in Manhattan; the monster kills all but a handful in a single night – near the end of the film, rescue teams are taking out individual survivors by helicopter. Even knocking over skyscrapers wouldn’t kill everyone on Manhattan in a single night, the majority would survive. (Awful as the Dresden raid was, most residents survived it.) **The monster attack starts about 10 p.m., and by about midnight, significant military forces are in the city. How did they get there so fast? If an actual sea monster attacked a city, initially, police officers would fight it; hours would pass before military units arrived.** The movie characters are trying to cross the Hudson and East rivers to get off Manhattan, but why is being in Brooklyn or Hoboken any safer with a 100,000-ton amphibian right nearby? Then, at dawn, the military destroys Manhattan to ensure the monster is dead. It is inconceivable a mere eight hours could pass from the very first news that monsters exist to a presidential decision to bomb the nation’s largest city. Even if you accept the premise of a 500-foot-tall amphibian that has never been noticed by anyone in all of human history, the rest of the movie should make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troy_mcclure_sf/32/4150_2.png) [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troy_McClure_SF)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/16 "2008-01-23T18:43:17Z")
> [@Tuesday Morning Quarterback](#): > > “The movie characters are trying to cross the Hudson and East rivers to get off Manhattan, but why is being in Brooklyn or Hoboken any safer with a 100,000-ton amphibian right nearby?” > > “Hey Guys, I’ve Got An Idea, Let’s Run Directly Toward the Monster!” Okay, so we can’t stay but we shouldn’t go? What’s _your_ bright idea then? ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/17 "2008-01-23T19:27:03Z")
[QUOTE=Tripler] Naval support? Hrm, don’t know. . . [/Armchair General] [/QUOTE] No wonder you can’t guess - you’d have to be a Bathtub Admiral. On the East Coast, there is almost always an aircraft carrier at sea somewhere between Florida and New England, mostly in the Virginia Capes (off the coast of southern Virginia and North Carolina) area. They don’t always have a complete (or even partial) airwing onboard, though - that usually happens only for special evolutions like doing work-ups for major deployments. If there are none at sea to be sent to NYC, then there will be a carrier on ready standby in Norfolk. It must be able to get to sea between 24-48 hours after being notified. But carriers usually don’t have an airwing onboard when stateside - that only happens for special evolutions like work-ups prior to a major deployment. And a carrier without an airwing is nothing but a floating communications platform at best, and a big ole fat target during a shooting war. Of course, Naval aviation units can be sent from where they are based (big bases on the East Coast are Naval Air Station Norfolk, Naval Air StationOceana (Virginia Beach) (both Navy) and the Marine Air Station at Cherry Point, NC to meet up with the carrier off the coast of NYC. So let’s call it 2-3 days at the very soonest that the Navy can fight the monster using naval aircraft from a carrier. Not a lot of help for this scenario. There are of course smaller ships with a wide array of non-nuclear weapons all over the East Coast. Some of these frigates, cruisers and destroyers can probably be in place 6-18 hours to start shelling the city and the monster. And within a couple of days, there can be a whole armada off of the coast of the city. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/18 "2008-01-23T19:49:41Z")
Rumor has it that jets from Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque are always on call and ready to be in Los Alamos within 15 minutes of being summoned. I don’t know if a single formation is all you’re asking about, and I have no cite, but there ya go. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/19 "2008-01-23T19:57:39Z")
[QUOTE=flyboy88] Also, I’m guessing that if decided, you wouldn’t drop a strategic nuke on something like that–you’d use a tactical nuke from an Air Force bomber to better pinpoint the location of the… thing. And ftr, I’m guessing the Navy would be the first people onstation if something like that ever happened. The Navy is very quick to move out and react, whereas the AF takes a bit longer since it tends to drag a much larger logistical tail along with whatever it’s deploying. I’m not saying it could provide an armed jet, but it could easily get a P-3 or Hawkeye there quickly. [/QUOTE] Sure. Now you’ve got a **radioactive, _pissed off_(er)** monster in NYC. Because you were too big of a wuss to hit it with anything more than a few kilotons. We need total vaporization people! 🆒 (anti flash goggles) ---
**Author:** ![Slypork](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@Slypork](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slypork)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641/20 "2008-01-23T20:02:20Z")
[QUOTE=flyboy88] Also, I’m guessing that if decided, you wouldn’t drop a strategic nuke on something like that–you’d use a tactical nuke from an Air Force bomber to better pinpoint the location of the… thing. [/QUOTE] Would you really want to use a conventional nuke on a city? You’d wind up vaporizing all of the valuable infrastructure and businesses that the monster hasn’t gotten around to yet. A neutron bomb might be a better idea. Target the creature with a smaller yield device, killing it and leaving the bulk of Manhattan intact. Think of all the great apartments that will suddenly be available! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fast-can-the-us-military-attack-a-us-city/434641.md?page=2)