# How fat and out of shape are you allowed to get in the modern military not be kicked not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 6, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726 "2010-09-06T00:06:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/21 "2010-09-07T19:04:22Z")
If you are “kicked out” of the armed services for being overweight and/or out-of-shape, does it show as a dishonorable discharge? Do you lose your pension? ---
**Author:** ![flyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@flyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flyboy)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/22 "2010-09-07T21:27:03Z")
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:21, topic:552726”] If you are “kicked out” of the armed services for being overweight and/or out-of-shape, does it show as a dishonorable discharge? Do you lose your pension? [/QUOTE] I think it would show up as, at worst case, an other-than-honorable discharge. That could be enough to kill most/all of your benefits, including your retirement (taking my info from [here](http://www.jag.navy.mil/legal_services/legal_services_faq.htm#dq10)). This is assuming, of course, that the separation occurs after the 20-year mark. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/23 "2010-09-07T21:43:46Z")
> [@flyboy](#): > > [quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:21, topic:552726”] > > If you are “kicked out” of the armed services for being overweight and/or out-of-shape, does it show as a dishonorable discharge? Do you lose your pension? I think it would show up as, at worst case, an other-than-honorable discharge. That could be enough to kill most/all of your benefits, including your retirement (taking my info from [here](http://www.jag.navy.mil/legal_services/legal_services_faq.htm#dq10)). This is assuming, of course, that the separation occurs after the 20-year mark. [/QUOTE] You’d have to really screw up to get an [OTH](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge#Other_Than_Honorable_.28OTH.29) discharge. I don’t think that failure to meet weight standards would ever lead to that. In egregious cases, a servicemember might get a [General Discharge (Under Honorable Conditions)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge#General), but I’m pretty sure that most people get a regular [Honorable](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge#Honorable) discharge, with a notation about failure to meet weight standards on one copy of the DD-214. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/24 "2010-09-07T22:02:24Z")
> [@robby](#): > > You’d have to really screw up to get an [OTH](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge#Other_Than_Honorable_.28OTH.29) discharge. I don’t think that failure to meet weight standards would ever lead to that. > > In egregious cases, a servicemember might get a [General Discharge (Under Honorable Conditions)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge#General), but I’m pretty sure that most people get a regular [Honorable](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge#Honorable) discharge, with a notation about failure to meet weight standards on one copy of the DD-214. P.S. A servicemember being discharged for failure to meet weight standards will typically get an “Administrative Separation” (or “admin sep”). The administrative separation board will determine the characterization of service (typically honorable or general). ---
**Author:** ![flyboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@flyboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flyboy)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/25 "2010-09-08T00:09:59Z")
> [@robby](#): > > > [@robby](#): > > > > You’d have to really screw up to get an [OTH](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge#Other_Than_Honorable_.28OTH.29) discharge. I don’t think that failure to meet weight standards would ever lead to that. > > > > In egregious cases, a servicemember might get a [General Discharge (Under Honorable Conditions)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge#General), but I’m pretty sure that most people get a regular [Honorable](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge#Honorable) discharge, with a notation about failure to meet weight standards on one copy of the DD-214. > > P.S. A servicemember being discharged for failure to meet weight standards will typically get an “Administrative Separation” (or “admin sep”). The administrative separation board will determine the characterization of service (typically honorable or general). True–I was just giving the worst-case scenario. I know of some people that have been in this type of process over the years, but never found out about the ultimate fate. So I don’t know what the norm is. The way I read the JAG site, the admin board _can_ recommend an OTH if it feels the need, although it’s probably never been done. Personally, if I was on such a board and confronted with someone who was trying to eat their way out of the Navy, an OTH is what I’d recommend. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/26 "2010-09-08T00:29:46Z")
Officially the standards are the same between active duty and reserve/national guard. In reality there are a lot more fat part time soldiers. In general you are put in a weight control program and told to shape up. Generally no one gets kicked out but you can’t get promoted, go to school or get reenlistment bonuses. ---
**Author:** ![AmunRa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AmunRa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmunRa)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/27 "2010-09-08T06:11:21Z")
> [@robby](#): > > In egregious cases, a servicemember might get a [General Discharge (Under Honorable Conditions)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge#General), but I’m pretty sure that most people get a regular [Honorable](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_discharge#Honorable) discharge, with a notation about failure to meet weight standards on one copy of the DD-214. In my unit it was fairly standard for the fat boys to be threatened with a General discharge, but as I said earlier in the thread I never saw anyone actually get discharged for weight in my unit, so who knows what would have happened. I can tell you that we gave several druggies Honorable discharges though, it just made the paper work easier so we could get them out of our hair faster. ---
**Author:** ![Kilmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a6a055/32.png) [@Kilmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilmore)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/28 "2010-09-09T02:43:22Z")
I got my fat ass canned from the Navy back in 1990. I was a Missile Technician, working on SLBM’s, but I was trained in the Poseidon Missile which was being withdrawn. I believe my BMI was about 20. I got an honorable discharge with VA medical benefits. ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/29 "2010-09-11T00:59:47Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I was on the fat-boy program for a while. I was 6’2", 210 lbs., and the limit for my age was (IIRC) 190 lbs. The company clerk (who did the measuring after the PT tests) ETS’d, and the new clerk wasn’t measuring anyone’s necks correctly, so a lot of got put on extra PT, including our master sergeant. At the next PT test, they found someone else to do the measuring. > > Today? Yeah, I’d fail. I’m trying to get back to 210, though. That’s pretty demanding. What branch? When I was in the Navy (80s), those were my exact dimensions (I might be a smidge taller, especially in the morning before the day has taken its toll). I hovered around 200-210 during my entire time in. Not once did I get told about being overweight. The fact is, if you take your average 6’2" fellow and put 210 pounds on him he still is a tall slim guy. I remember once standing on a fancy glass bathroom scale on display at a department store and an older woman standing next to me looked at the number, gasped, and said “Where do you put it?” ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/30 "2010-09-11T01:33:08Z")
I missed this one… > [@robby](#): > > Besides room to jog (in the missile compartment), the large missile subs additionally have treadmills and other exercise equipment, such as a weight bench. Wait a minute. A _weight bench_??? On a military vessel that is designed to be an acoustic “hole in the water” ??? :eek: Was it some five-million-dollar silent setup with rubber weights? I can just imagine some Russian sonar operator listening for the quietest rustle among the sounds of the sea, and then some doofus drops a 45lb plate on the deck. And there’s sure to be the “grunter” somewhere in the crew—the guy who grunts and groans as he lifts some crazy amount of weight above his head and then immediately lets the whole barbell crash to the floor. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/31 "2010-09-11T01:37:37Z")
Submarines don’t run dead silent all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/32 "2010-09-11T01:53:15Z")
If there’s a draft, can you get out of being drafted by being too fat? Or too thin? ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/33 "2010-09-11T01:54:02Z")
> [@minor7flat5](#): > > > [@Balthisar](#): > > > > I was on the fat-boy program for a while. I was 6’2", 210 lbs., and the limit for my age was (IIRC) 190 lbs. The company clerk (who did the measuring after the PT tests) ETS’d, and the new clerk wasn’t measuring anyone’s necks correctly, so a lot of got put on extra PT, including our master sergeant. At the next PT test, they found someone else to do the measuring. > > > > Today? Yeah, I’d fail. I’m trying to get back to 210, though. > > That’s pretty demanding. What branch? > > When I was in the Navy (80s), those were my exact dimensions (I might be a smidge taller, especially in the morning before the day has taken its toll). I hovered around 200-210 during my entire time in. Not once did I get told about being overweight. That was the Army, from 1991 to 1996. It was 1995 when I was suddenly deemed “overweight” due to the BMI measurements – no problems up until then. At 26 when I ETS’d, I wasn’t eligible for reenlistment! If I were 210 now, I’d be laid unwillingly every day where I’m working now. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/34 "2010-09-11T01:55:17Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Submarines don’t run dead silent all the time. Boomers spend a lot of their time being very quiet and they take any gratuitous noise very seriously. I’m sure the weight lifting stuff was all sound isolated and off limits during certain periods, otherwise the Navy never would have allowed it. But it still sounded kind of funny, like part of some silly joke about screen doors on submarines. I’m interested in **Robby** ’s description of the setup. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/35 "2010-09-11T02:17:51Z")
> [@minor7flat5](#): > > I missed this one… > > > [@robby](#): > > > > Besides room to jog (in the missile compartment), the large missile subs additionally have treadmills and other exercise equipment, such as a weight bench. > > Wait a minute. A _weight bench_??? > > On a military vessel that is designed to be an acoustic “hole in the water” ??? :eek: > > Was it some five-million-dollar silent setup with rubber weights? > > I can just imagine some Russian sonar operator listening for the quietest rustle among the sounds of the sea, and then some doofus drops a 45lb plate on the deck. > > And there’s sure to be the “grunter” somewhere in the crew—the guy who grunts and groans as he lifts some crazy amount of weight above his head and then immediately lets the whole barbell crash to the floor. > [@minor7flat5](#): > > > [@friedo](#): > > > > Submarines don’t run dead silent all the time. > > Boomers spend a lot of their time being very quiet and they take any gratuitous noise very seriously. > > I’m sure the weight lifting stuff was all sound isolated and off limits during certain periods, otherwise the Navy never would have allowed it. But it still sounded kind of funny, like part of some silly joke about screen doors on submarines. > > I’m interested in **Robby** ’s description of the setup. I did just one patrol on an old boomer in the late 1980s, which had the weight bench. The attack submarine I served on as a junior officer did not have one. It was a pretty ordinary weight bench, as I recall. I don’t remember the set-up all that well, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the weights were coated with rubber or plastic. As for noise in general, “so-called air noise” is really irrelevant. People can yell and scream (and grunt) all they want, and the sound will not be readily transmitted outside the hull. What does transmit sound is metal-on-metal contact with the hull or part of the submarine connected acoustically to the hull. For this reason, the decks are isolated from the hull, so anything dropped on a deck does not not readily transmit noise outside the hull. The final check is the sonar operators on board the sub. They are constantly listening for sounds of other vessels, as well as for any sounds emitted by their own vessel. If someone does make a loud noise, they will report this information to the Officer of the Deck immediately. If the weight-lifters make a habit of making noise, it would be secured pretty quickly. During certain so-called “tactical situations” activities like this might also be preemptively curtailed. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/36 "2010-09-11T02:29:57Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > The company clerk…ETS’d… What does that mean? ---
**Author:** ![AmunRa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AmunRa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmunRa)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/37 "2010-09-11T06:13:19Z")
ETS: Expiration, Term of Service Basically the date your enlistment ends and you go back to being a civilian. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726/38 "2010-09-11T18:57:11Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > That was the Army, from 1991 to 1996. It was 1995 when I was suddenly deemed “overweight” due to the BMI measurements – no problems up until then. At 26 when I ETS’d, I wasn’t eligible for reenlistment! If I were 210 now, I’d be laid unwillingly every day where I’m working now. 😉 Probably because the BMI recommendations have changed a few times since they were introduced. Currently, the NIH charts put the BMI of a 6’2" 210# person [at 27lbs/in^2](http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/obesity/bmi_tbl.htm). That is [officially in the overweight classification](http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/public/heart/obesity/lose_wt/risk.htm). These standards are intentionally skewed towards encouraging a lower BMI than most of us consider “normal”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-and-out-of-shape-are-you-allowed-to-get-in-the-modern-military-not-be-kicked-not/552726.md?page=1)