# How Fat is Too Fat? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 30, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622 "2012-11-30T22:47:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/61 "2012-12-02T00:52:15Z")
It is more frustrated by the persistent and willful ignorance than the being ignored but thank you both for the kind words. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/62 "2012-12-02T00:55:03Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Those who wish to remain ignorantly believing that obesity is based on will power deficiency (or “self-loathing”) … Since I presume this was directed at me, I’d just like to point out that I also said: > [@Kaio](#): > > To the point of keeping it off, though… at this point we as a community/culture may need to focus on prevention, **because as mentioned once a person is obese for a period of time, their metabolism is permanently changed and they will actually be unable to maintain a healthy weight while eating as much as someone who was never obese.** This is why the rising number of obese children is so concerning. These lifestyle habits need to be instilled early, before the metabolic damage is done, and so people can’t imagine life without them. As well as: > [@Kaio](#): > > So you can’t approach it as something temporary, or even as “losing weight”; ultimately the goal is to maintain a lower weight. Though I do maintain that emotional issues are also at play. A few people in this thread have even said as much. And it was certainly true for me. ---
**Author:** ![LurkerInNJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ed655f/32.png) [@LurkerInNJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkerInNJ)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/63 "2012-12-02T01:01:21Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > Not to mention that fat people are often ridiculed if they do try to go to a gym or exercise. In 30+ years of going to a gym 3 to 5 times a week, not once, not ever, have I seen a fat person ridiculed at a gym. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/64 "2012-12-02T01:09:01Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > In 30+ years of going to a gym 3 to 5 times a week, not once, not ever, have I seen a fat person ridiculed at a gym. +1 Where do you go to the gym **lavenderviolet** , a middle school? ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/65 "2012-12-02T01:09:36Z")
> [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > In 30+ years of going to a gym 3 to 5 times a week, not once, not ever, have I seen a fat person ridiculed at a gym. As a very fat person who regularly goes to the gym, I agree. I’ve never been ridiculed and sometimes am lauded. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/66 "2012-12-02T01:13:57Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > It is more frustrated by the persistent and willful ignorance than the being ignored but thank you both for the kind words. Same here. I guess I take it for granted you are going to same something informed and balanced. But like you said, it goes over people’s heads since obesity is such a moral issue. It is like having an informed discussion about birth control and abstinence with radical fundamentalists in the rural south. You can’t, the moral judgements constantly block it and the conversation devolves into ‘if they weren’t such sluts they wouldn’t need condoms’. But thanks for posting scientific literature backing up your opinion. I know supplemental leptin can reverse the brain and thyroid changes seen in people who lose weight and leptin seems to be the master hormone in controlling bodyweight regulation. But even if leptin is a weight maintenance drug which can increase the long term success rates from 5-20% up to maybe 50-70% it isn’t going to be on the market for years. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/67 "2012-12-02T01:15:48Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > It is like having an informed discussion about birth control and abstinence with radical fundamentalists in the rural south. You can’t, the moral judgements constantly block it and the conversation devolves into ‘if they weren’t such sluts they wouldn’t need condoms’. You keep making this terrible analogy, I wish you would stop. The idea that diet and exercise leads to weight loss is hardly as ineffectual as claiming that abstinence education is the best way to reduce pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/68 "2012-12-02T01:20:15Z")
Abstinence outside of marriage does prevent pregnancy and STDs as long as people do it permanently, and both fail about 90% of the time long term. What is your disagreement with that? Because the moral judgments around sex aren’t as strong (anymore) as the moral judgments around obesity it provides a different perspective on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/69 "2012-12-02T01:31:01Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > It is more frustrated by the persistent and willful ignorance than the being ignored but thank you both for the kind words. well, I’ll be sure to give you the adulation you think you deserve from now on. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/70 "2012-12-02T01:46:54Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > It is more frustrated by the persistent and willful ignorance than the being ignored but thank you both for the kind words. Ok. So how unfit is too unfit? And how do we encourage fitness. Treadmills in the lines to receive Obamacare? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/71 "2012-12-02T01:48:15Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > Since I presume this was directed at me, I’d just like to point out that I also said … While I did include your “self-esteem” comment the vast majority of your contribution has been good advice. You have succeeded in developing a healthier lifestyle and have shared what sort of changes you have made to do that, not a diet, not as deprivation, but as new evolving sets of lifestyle choices and habits. The only complaint there is the fact that the op did bring up a particular topic: what is “too fat” and why? Your advice may be good and your successful personal experience of some usefulness to others, but these threads always do go the same way … those claiming that fatties are just lazy and weight loss is simple, those who witness their success, those who witness their failures, those who try to explain that simple is immaterial because simple is still extremely difficult, and so on, usually talking past each other. Very few here actually _addressed the op_ (other than a few stupid joke attempts). It just immediately went into the usual knee jerk fat reflexes. BTW, for you possible interest, there is a huge body of research now that shows that it actually _is_, more than anything else, the brain. Inflammation and dysfunction of brain centers that regulation appetite and metabolism occurs early in life in response to particular aspects of the Standard American Diet, in animal models documented even prenatally, some of which we discussed in [this past thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=637030) beginning in post #34 and 38. The tendency to for any individual’s brain to respond to these factors with these sorts of dysfunctions seems to be a product of both genetic and epigenetic influences. Really it is all the detail that comes after what some think is the end of the story that is absolutely fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/72 "2012-12-02T01:49:16Z")
**jz** not to worry, like I said approval from idiots aint worth much. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/73 "2012-12-02T01:55:01Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Ok. So how unfit is too unfit? And how do we encourage fitness. Treadmills in the lines to receive Obamacare? 😉 Half an hour a day of moderately intense exercise is the generally recommended guideline. Some is better than none though and higher fitness yet of course is better. How do we encourage fitness? We focus on it more than on fatness to start. As parents we model it for our children. We play actively with them. We facilitate casual bike commuting and communities that are walkable. Employee Wellness programs help some. There are lots of ways. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/74 "2012-12-02T02:07:33Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > snip. Fixed that for you. > > They cannot do that thanks to lack of willpower, nothing more. There are plenty of neurological, and biochemical issues that play into that factor, but few of them absolve a person of the simple responsibility of how much, and of what they put into their mouths. None of that has much bearing of how much, and how often they choose to engage in any non sedentary physical activity. You cannot avoid having to eat, but you CAN avoid overeating, and eating poorly. I have no pity for this at all. Just so you know, it’s against the [rules](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7697048&postcount=11) to modify another person’s quote, **Acid Lamp** , so refrain from doing this again. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/75 "2012-12-02T02:20:34Z")
S > [@LurkerInNJ](#): > > In 30+ years of going to a gym 3 to 5 times a week, not once, not ever, have I seen a fat person ridiculed at a gym. Yes and I tire of hearing this phony charge being tossed around; not only by fat people seeking to justify their behavior but by businesses looking to exploit this mentality (PF, I’m looking at you). ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/76 "2012-12-02T02:25:30Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Abstinence outside of marriage does prevent pregnancy and STDs as long as people do it permanently, and both fail about 90% of the time long term. What is your disagreement with that? > > Because the moral judgments around sex aren’t as strong (anymore) as the moral judgments around obesity it provides a different perspective on the issue. Because you don’t need sex to survive, and you do need food to survive. Overindulgence of sex does not cause STDs. Overindulgence of food does result in obesity. It’s a shitty analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/77 "2012-12-02T02:31:48Z")
> [@Kaio](#): > > They _can._ The question is how badly they _want_ to. It does require that one completely change their approach to food and physical activity. For some people, they’ve decided that the opportunity cost is too high. They are making the choice that they prefer their current lifestyle rather than physical fitness. > > That’s their choice, but that in no way indicates that healthy lifestyles don’t work for weight loss. It just indicates that people are unmotivated to change, even when the cost is fairly high. > > Why is this? I don’t know. In my experience, lack of self-care is an indication of low self-esteem (possibly even to the point of self-loathing), low self-confidence, and/or depression. Maybe throw in some denial, too, e.g. “I’m not my body, I’m my mind” kind of attitude, when the truth of the matter is that, as embodied beings, we are _both_ body and mind, and neither one is less important or less valuable. (And it honestly pains me to think of people who devalue themselves this way. I’ve done it, and it’s not a good place to be, emotionally.) > > Damn straight I couldn’t lose weight while spending all my waking hours sitting in a chair and eating entire pints of ice cream by myself. (Which, yes, I used to do.) I lost weight by drinking more water every day, eating more vegetables every day, and starting to walk 20 minutes every day. Eventually I worked up to running for 45+ minutes a day. I keep it off because I still run (or bike, or practice aerial circus) every day. I can’t maintain weight or reasonable fitness by dieting my way down and then going back to eating fries and shakes every day. The good news is, if you can tough it out while the habits are forming, eventually fries and shakes every day totally lose their appeal. Nowadays, crappy, processed fast food makes me physically ill to eat. Low quality food _tastes bad_ to me. > > Low-carb wasn’t a thing back then (at least I’d never heard of it) but I doubt I would have tried it or been successful at it, because it’s not a sustainable way of eating (for me) as a permanent approach to food. And that’s the point. Whatever you do for the purpose of “losing weight” is something you will have to do _every day for the rest of your life._ If you give up bread and potatoes, you give them up forever – which anyone would balk at – or you gain the weight back. So you can’t approach it as something temporary, or even as “losing weight”; ultimately the goal is to maintain a lower weight. +1. Good post. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/78 "2012-12-02T02:33:13Z")
On review **Kaio** I did not mean to imply that emotional issues are not also involved. And as an IMHO I think even more for women then men. There is a lot of self image baggage that comes with fat. And the sorts of attitudes that we see often from some in these sorts of threads may contribute too. Interestingly enough teen girls who diet are at much greater risk than similarly BMI matched teen girls who do not diet to have issues both with later obesity and with eating disorders. (I can find the study later if you’d like.) Perhaps that plays into the perception that some have that they are being ridiculed at the gym. Certainly many who are fat a very self-conscious about it and it is easy to see how certain looks or comments could be interpreted in ways they were not intended by someone who that self-conscious. Sort of like Woody Allen’s “D’Jew like Wagner?” bit. I dunno, just a thought. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/79 "2012-12-02T02:39:54Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Abstinence outside of marriage does prevent pregnancy and STDs as long as people do it permanently, and both fail about 90% of the time long term. What is your disagreement with that? > > Because the moral judgments around sex aren’t as strong (anymore) as the moral judgments around obesity it provides a different perspective on the issue. And to further the point, if you really must belabor this analogy: everyone in the thread is saying that if you want to prevent STDs and pregnancy you should use a condom every time, and your response is “but abstinence doesn’t WORK!”. I don’t think anyone is arguing that crash diets or diets that are a complete 180 are going to be a comfortable change. You have to have a responsible diet all of the time. Not a crazy crash diet, but a responsible daily diet all of the time for the rest of your life if you want to minimize the negative effects of eating. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622/80 "2012-12-02T03:20:58Z")
**Kaio** [this](http://her.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/6/770.full) is not the exact study I was remembering but includes some of the same information. > [@](#): > > Although dieting is often touted as a solution to the rising obesity epidemic, a number of prospective studies suggest that dieting is not effective in preventing weight gain [27–29]. Furthermore, recent cross-sectional and prospective data suggest that dieting may actually be associated with an increased risk of obesity among children and adolescents. … prospective data from three large observational studies have shown that dieting predicts weight gain among adolescents [25, 33, 34]. The largest of these three prospective studies followed 8203 girls and 6769 boys for 3 years and found that adolescents who reported dieting at baseline gained more weight than non-dieters, adjusting for baseline BMI, pubertal development, dietary intake and physical activity/inactivity … Among adolescents, self-reported dieting has been shown to predict increased risk of disordered eating behavior … Collectively, findings from the cross-sectional and prospective studies investigating associations between dieting and weight gain and between dieting and disordered eating behaviors suggest that interventions aimed at preventing youth from engaging in dieting behaviors have the potential to reduce the incidence of obesity and eating disorders. Given the strong influence that peers and families can have on the dieting behaviors of youth [57–59], interventions that include strategies focused on changing peer and family norms, such as educating parents that the comments they make about their own weight or their child’s weight can be counterproductive to obesity prevention efforts and implementing anti-dieting campaigns in school settings, may be effective in reducing dieting among youth. In addition, providing youth with the skills and support for healthy alternatives to dieting, (i.e. healthy eating and regular physical activity) may also be effective in reducing dieting behavior among youth [60, 61]. … [This is another](http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=383044), looking at overweight, binging and purging as the outcomes: > [@](#): > > Girls … As in our cross-sectional analyses, concern with weight was directly associated with all 3 weight-related problems in our prospective analyses, and the direction and magnitude of the effect were similar for all 3 outcomes … As we found in our cross-sectional analyses, parental weight-related teasing was directly associated with binge eating and overweight but not purging prospectively. … The point beyond the impact of the emotional factors long term being that perhaps even more in teens than in adults a focus on the weight is not helpful. It is instead counterproductive. The focus must be on establishing basic healthy nutritional and fitness habits with BMI merely as a flag to potentially identify someone at greater risk for needing improvement on those measures. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fat-is-too-fat/642622.md?page=5)