# How fervently did the British government, Margaret Thatcher in particular, oppress the Welsh language in the 1980s **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 23, 2025, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308 "2025-01-23T22:23:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/21 "2025-01-26T03:12:13Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > (b) School taught _in_ minority language, i.e. also other subjects - was that ever the case in Wales? I had a Welsh colleague who wasn’t taught in English until 4th grade. This came up because he had to lie and swear that he had gone to elementary school in English in order for his son to be allowed to attend English language schools (his wife was French–from France). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/22 "2025-01-26T03:15:12Z")
> [@UDS1](#): > > All living languages have loanwords. English itself is famous for borrowing from other languages How many did we steal, err borrow from Welsh? I mean I can think of coracle, altho we changed it, and of course “cwm” loved by crossword puzzles, scrabble and those who are asked “okay but when _is_ “W” used as a vowel?” 😀 Also Penguin, altho that referred to the Great Auk, and QE2s favorite little doggies. I mean having a great grandmother whose last name was Davies, I know what _bara brith_\* is, but it is hardly s a loan word. - a tasty sort of spiced raisin bread. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/23 "2025-01-26T04:37:27Z")
> [@UDS1](#): > > All living languages have loanwords. English itself is famous for borrowing from other languages. Indeed. For example, using the text from @PatrickLondon 's post as a sample: | Word | Origins | | --- | --- | | From | Old English | | tele- | Greek | | vision | Anglo-French, from Old French, from Latin | | programmes | Late Latin, from Greek | | The | Old English | | British | Old English, from Latin, from Celtic | | Broad- | Old English | | cast | Scandanavian, likely Old Norse | | -ing | Old English | | is | Old English | | current- | Old French, from Latin | | -ly | Old English | | show | Middle English, from Old English | | -ing | _see above_ | | an | Old English | | Irish | Old English, from Old Norse, from Old Irish, from Old Celtic | | language | Old French, from Vulgar Latin, from Latin | | murder | Old English | | mystery | Anglo-French, from Old French, from Latin | | and | Old English | | the | _see above_ | | loan- | Old Norse | | words | Old English | | for | Old English | | all | Old English | | the | _see above_ | | technic- | Latin, from Greek | | -al | Middle English, from French or Latin | | -ities | Middle English, from Old French and Latin | | of | Old English | | investigation | Old French from Latin | | pod- | _word of uncertain origins_ | | -casting | _see above_ | | etc. | Latin | | fair- | Old English | | -ly | _see above_ | | ping | Modern English (19th century) | | out | Old English | | Plus | Latin | | the | _see above_ | | hefty | Middle English, from Old English | | swearing | Middle English, from Old English | | is | _see above_ | | most- | Old English | | -ly | _see above_ | | English | Old English | ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/24 "2025-01-26T05:51:27Z")
I have some expertise in Welsh, so if someone has factual questions about the language, by all means ask. Yes, Welsh has diacritics: gŵyr is different from gwŷr. No, there are no monoglot adult speakers, but there are people who are not as comfortable in English as in Welsh. There is a lot of value to the language as a symbol of ethnic and national identity, over and above the language’s considerable aesthetic value. English monoglots are also often fiercely anti-Welsh language, so it’s a much greater issue than a lot of other minority language communities. There aren’t a ton of borrowings from Welsh into English unless you consider place names, like London or Edinburgh. ---
**Author:** ![JacobSwan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a6a055/32.png) [@JacobSwan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JacobSwan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/25 "2025-01-26T10:21:50Z")
> [@Mops](#): > > The right to register personal names of the minority culture for one’s children (not relevant in the UK because apparently there is no bar to register any name) Not entirely true. My kids all have a traditional welsh name as their 3rd name. My youngest has Llŷr and the registrar couldn’t find a ŷ on the computer. So his birth certificate was handwritten. We jokingly complained about how they had accents for all the foreign french and scandinavian languages, but didn’t fully support a native british language. The registrar didn’t quite get our sense of humour though and promised to raise our complaint. So the system may have been updated now as it was 18 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/26 "2025-01-26T11:08:54Z")
> [@UDS1](#): > > as I can’t remember who said, English doesn’t so much borrow from other languages as follow them down dark alleys, beat them up and go through their pockets. This was James D. Nicoll, a very smart fellow. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/27 "2025-01-26T18:16:56Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > \*From TV programmes. The BBC is currently showing an Irish-language murder mystery and the loanwords for all the technicalities of investigation, podcasting, etc., fairly ping out. Plus the hefty swearing is mostly English. I think you have been watching Crá - I watched the first few episodes myself before losing interest. Full credit to you for noticing how Irish speakers use a generous sprinkling of English words, and I can understand how you might conclude that Irish has stood still and been overtaken by social and technical developments. But this is not at all the case; the reality is more complex and (in my opinion) more interesting. The English words you are hearing are not really “loan words” in Irish, they are English words being pronounced in English. There are native Irish words for all the English words you heard: Internet, web, podcasting, evidence, forensic science, laboratory, etc., that are known to the speakers and that they would certainly use in a formal setting such as writing a report. If I (a non-native speaker trying to do my best) were speaking Irish I would feel obliged to use the Irish word. Whereas when native speakers pepper their sentences with English words it is a sign of confidence and of the vitality of the language. So for example if I wanted to say “on my bicycle” I would say “ar mo rothar” but a native speaker might say “ar mo bhicycle”. Exactly the opposite way around to what you might think! As for the swearing - yes, absolutely! ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/28 "2025-01-26T18:26:33Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I can think of two ways in which being a speaker of a minor language is a benefit. > > 1. Non mainstream ideas have some chance to flourish among the language speakers. > 2. In a war, it may be easier to keep secrets from your enemy, if they have no or very few translators. > > And one hypothesized (but, even if true, probably only barely so): > > 1. Particularities of the language - whether it has future tense or not, whether it has masculine and feminine tenses, etc. - may subtly influence the way that you think about things and lead you to having novel ideas. > > Outside of those three things, there’s really no upside to minority languages. I disagree with this analysis. None of these three benefits is an important or relevant reason why people persist in speaking their national language, and you haven’t touched on the most important benefit - the national language as an important component of the national identity and culture, which helps to form social cohesion, a shared sense of the nation as a common endeavour, and continuity with the experiences of our parents and grandparents. Far from being a burden, it helps to build prosperity. You may ask the Danes why they persist in speaking Danish, the Finns why they stubbornly continue to speak Finnish, or the Israelis why they went to the bother of reviving Hebrew, and I can guarantee that not one of them will say “it is so that when we go to war our enemies will not be able to understand what we are saying”. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/29 "2025-01-26T18:55:04Z")
A rather more down to earth reason they might give is "Because we’re not bloody English/Swedish/Russian [whichever neighbour looms too heavily over them] ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/30 "2025-01-26T19:03:29Z")
So i don’t think she actively suppressed it directly. The active suppression of the Welsh language was a generation or more before that (my mum and her siblings growing up in a upper middle class family in North Wales in the immediate post war period, did not learn Welsh even though both her parents did. As it was not considered “done thing” for an upwardly mobile family) I think it is more the case that the campaign to encourage the Welsh language was run by local Welsh political organizations (town, county, etc.) who were under the control of opposition partys like Labour and Plaid Cymru, and so were treated by Thatcher much the same way Trump treats “sanctuary cities” in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/31 "2025-01-26T19:12:20Z")
Welsh language identity is very, very complex. There are: - Welsh people who are native Welsh speakers (North Wales, Mid Wales, South Wales) - Welsh people who were native Welsh speakers once but who largely exist through English, and may or may not still be able to use Welsh - Welsh people who are native English speakers, who have learned some Welsh (a few words to fluency) - Welsh people who are native English speakers who have no Welsh at all but are ambivalent to positive about Welsh - Welsh people who are native English speakers who have no Welsh at all but are very anti-Welsh language (“the colonized mind”) - English people resident in Wales, who have learned some Welsh (a few words to fluency) - English people resident in Wales who have no Welsh at all but are ambivalent to positive about Welsh - English people resident in Wales who have no Welsh at all but are very anti-Welsh etc. Thatcher’s attack on the miners was an attack on a stronghold of Welsh culture, which was largely not in Welsh-speaking areas (the South Wales Valleys had shifted to English two or three generations earlier, and not completely, but mining culture was largely in English by the 1980s). I think the best way to understand is to imagine West Virginia as having its own language, West Virginish. West Virginians would be very well aware that their area was considered something of a backwater in the nation as a whole, but nevertheless be proud of their distinct language, culture and traditions. Simultaneously, they would be hyper aware that their resources were being extracted (for Wales, coal and water especially) and used for the benefit of the USA as a whole, but that most of those benefits weren’t felt in West Virginia, whose people remain largely poorer and relatively isolated. The language then becomes a symbol of pride and a reminder that they are, in fact, their own nation within a nation. There’s a proverb, cenedl heb iaith, cenedl heb galon: literally, “a nation without a language, a nation without a heart.” ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/32 "2025-01-26T19:22:29Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > you haven’t touched on the most important benefit - the national language as an important component of the national identity and culture, which helps to form social cohesion, a shared sense of the nation as a common endeavour, and continuity with the experiences of our parents and grandparents. Far from being a burden, it helps to build prosperity. Let’s say that there is a traditional, loved culture of the people of Vlagonya. And, in that culture, they believe that women should not work, that photography is a vehicle for shaman to steal and sell your soul, medicine is violating God’s divine plans, etc. Vlagonya is a poor country with a short lifespan and high infant mortality rate and will, almost certainly, stay that way. But they do have a strong sense of community. Nationalists are groups of people who believe in strong bonds of community, to the exclusion of other concerns. Large powerful nations - the US, France, etc. - often have low senses of community and tend to be more fragmented. On the other hand, the division into sub-groups that feel distant from other sub-groups also tends to act as a moderating force on extremism. (Not always, obviously.) In general, I’d admit that most of the relative merits of these things are all subjective. But I’d probably lean towards saying that culture and community have lower evidence of being good for people than things like medicine, participation in the workforce, travel and knowledge of other cultures and ideas, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/33 "2025-01-26T19:40:33Z")
Well, what about the fact that minority-language speakers are bicultural, then? Either exposure to multiple cultures is a benefit or it is not. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/34 "2025-01-26T19:55:40Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > But I’d probably lean towards saying that culture and community have lower evidence of being good for people than things like medicine, participation in the workforce, travel and knowledge of other cultures and ideas, etc. That has not been the experience of residential school survivors in Canada, who lost much of their Indigenous culture and language at the direction of governments. The evidence is very strong that the loss of their culture and language has created tremendous difficulties, both individually and inter-generationally. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/35 "2025-01-26T20:22:03Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The evidence is very strong that the loss of their culture and language has created tremendous difficulties, both individually and inter-generationally. Unless the issue is that they feel like they’re expected to continue their customs, when there’s little argument for them. You’d like to move to the city, learn physics, and create a school with a good science program back home. Your family says that you need to stay, so you can perform rituals over the graves of your ancestors and smoke peyote once a week. As you abide by their will, you become resentful of the poverty you experience and that you would have preferred to have left, and start drinking a bit much. Most issues are multi-faceted. This isn’t to say that there can’t be racism, segregation, intentional limitation of access to things like good medicine, good schooling, etc. But that’s not always the complete picture. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2025, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/36 "2025-01-26T20:47:25Z")
I see no reason to continue this conversation with you. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/37 "2025-01-27T00:41:57Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > In general, I’d admit that most of the relative merits of these things are all subjective. But I’d probably lean towards saying that culture and community have lower evidence of being good for people than things like medicine, participation in the workforce, travel and knowledge of other cultures and ideas, etc. In what world are “things like medicine, participation in the workforce, travel and knowledge of other cultures and ideas” not themselves aspects of culture and community? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/38 "2025-01-27T02:12:59Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Let’s say that there is a traditional, loved culture of the people of Vlagonya. And, in that culture, they believe that women should not work, that photography is a vehicle for shaman to steal and sell your soul, medicine is violating God’s divine plans, etc. > > Vlagonya is a poor country with a short lifespan and high infant mortality rate and will, almost certainly, stay that way. Though that’s not true _if_ Vlagonya is its own sovereign nation. If the rich dudes in the big palace speak the same language and are grow up with the same customs as the peasant woman in a hut, then it will probably all be ok. There are things that can go wrong (e.g. avaricious colonial powers, civil strife, etc ) but most likely all that will remain if those beliefs in a few generations will be quirky folk customs On the other hand if Vlagonya is just a region in a larger country, let’s call it Angerland then it’s the situation you describe. The Vlagonians are considered second class citizens. Any up and coming family with ambition must learn to speak and act Angerlish to stand any chance of advancement (and even then be looked down upon by the Angerlish elite for being Vlagonians). In that circumstance the Vlagonians will cling to their traditions and consider them part of their identity, and following them part of the resistance to Angerlish rule. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/39 "2025-01-27T09:32:10Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > Closing down mines sounds like the opposite of something a conservative would do. Ask any American conservative - more mining, more pollution, more jerbs!!! What was the Thatcher government’s reasoning? This was at a time when the coal industry was government owned - something Thatcher was firmly against. She also saw that the industry had become uneconomic and ultimately unviable, when we could import cheaper. It was also highly unionised, something she was was decidedly NOT a fan of. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2025, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308/40 "2025-01-27T14:32:06Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > This was at a time when the coal industry was government owned - something Thatcher was firmly against. She also saw that the industry had become uneconomic and ultimately unviable, when we could import cheaper. It was also highly unionised, something she was was decidedly NOT a fan of. From what I understand from news at the time, the unions were strong and used their power (and political pressure, with government owned mines) to limit the use of mechanization that would mean fewer (but easier) jobs. By the time Thatcher came along, manual coal mining in Britain was competing against highly automated mining and even giant open pit mining elswhere that produced coal at less than half the cost of Britain. Instead of Britain’s mining by manual labour, other countries had big machines that scraped coaloff the face and fed it to conveyor belts and similar innovation. > [@Coriolanus](#): > > When I saw Brannagh’s “Belfast” or Danny Boyle’s “Trainspotting” (set in Edinburgh) I was glad to have subtitles. Oddly, didn’t need them for Alan Parker’s “The Commitments” and (years later) as I mostly lived in and around Dublin I heard _that_ accent lots. When I watched the movie _Billy Elliot_ I was glad to have subtitles. It wasn’t just the accent, but the speed at which they talked. OTOH, in high school our class went to see _Mon Oncle Antoine_ and the very first line is in French “Hey Joe, le Boss”. As I understand, the French deliberately made up words to deal with modern computer tech (l’ordinateur) so as to not use borrowed English words. There’s the old joke quoting George W (who never actually said it) “the trouble with the French economy is they don’t even have a word for entrepreneur.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-fervently-did-the-british-government-margaret-thatcher-in-particular-oppress-the-welsh-language-in-the-1980s/1013308.md?page=3)