# How good a weapon were javelin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 20, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342 "2005-07-20T20:10:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/21 "2005-07-21T15:30:25Z")
I do not have an exact cite for this information, but I do remember reading that the pilum was designed to bend on impact, thus rendering it useless to the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/22 "2005-07-21T16:44:36Z")
> [@Can Handle the Truth](#): > > They did not have a problem with being de-horsed at impact. [Here](http://www.classicalfencing.com/mounted.shtml) is a site that debunks the stirrup myth. Which would be moot if they were de-horsed immediately after: > [@Classical Fencing](#): > > The stirrups are extremely useful for lateral support, and “standing” in the hand to hand fighting of a melee likely to follow a charge. It is especially difficult to pull a man off a horse if he has his feet firmly planted in the stirrups. Stirrups then allow the horseman to exploit the success of the charge > [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > The roman Pilum were designed with a long iron head held on with a weak wooden peg. The peg broke, rendering the pilum useless for return fire. I’ll disagree with your description as I’m picturing it, but I’ll agree with the basic idea. Although slow loading, this photo of a pilium is good. If you’re talking about the wooden base at the end of the iron shaft, then we are in agreement. Although, IIRC, the iron shaft itself was designed to bend as well. > [@](#): > > The whole point of the javelin from the Roman point of view is that it wasn’t the main weapon. It was an additional secondary weapon with a specific tactical use: to allow an infantryman to take down a few enemy at range while advancing. Well, break up the enemy formation. If you can get enough enemy files stumbling over the guy in front, you disorder their battle the opposing battle line and you have a distinct advantage as a result. I imagine that one of the great strengths of the pilia (sp?) was that they were used at such short range, when they did disrupt the enemy line there was very little time to re-organize. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/23 "2005-07-21T18:28:57Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > How many javelins can the average soldier hold? > > How easy are they to make? Once you’ve thrown a javelin, you can’t get it back. And unless you’ve designed it to break on impact, the other side can throw them back at you. > > I don’t really see how effective they could have been. I’m sure they were but theres something I seem to be missing about them. The Romans had three types of javelins- Pilum, Darts and Javlins. The darts were about on the order of “Lawn Darts” and were used later, during the Empire. They could carry about 6 of them, two regular and one pilum. The nice thing about a javelin type wepon is that it is thrown one handed, allowing you the protection of a shield. Until the late medieval period, the shield was critical. As others have pointed out- the Pilum was specially designed so that it generally could be thrown back. However, not all enemy could or would throw them back anyway. Cavalry isn’t likely to dismount to pick them up, and pikemen or Hoplites couldn’t very well drop their heavy spears to pick up a javelin to toos back. The advantages of the javelin is that it was cheap, easy to make and easy to train for. The franks used throwing axes, and the vikings used spears- with about the same reasons and effects. What else can you use - _in one hand, and with limited training-_ to give your main infantry a bit of longer range firepower? ---
**Author:** ![Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Can_Handle_the_Truth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/24 "2005-07-21T18:37:39Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > How many javelins can the average soldier hold? It was mentioned that a roman soldier typically had 2 javelins and I asumme more than about 5 would become unwieldy. OTOH, an archer could easily hold maybe 30 or 40 arrows. > > How easy are they to make? Once you’ve thrown a javelin, you can’t get it back. And unless you’ve designed it to break on impact, the other side can throw them back at you. > > I don’t really see how effective they could have been. I’m sure they were but theres something I seem to be missing about them. You don’t need to carry a whole bunch of javelins; you carry two or three, throw them, then run to the rear to get more. There’s a constant circulation of men, that’s how medium infantry fights. Armies that used a lot of javelins made them simple and cheap, cheaper than an arrow. It’s not the size of the weapon that makes it expensive, but the amount of labor that goes into it. Arrows are labor-intensive because they have to be made really straight and the guide feathers have to be precise. Try making yourself a paper airplane that flies perfectly straight! The people who assembled the feathers even became a special class of craftsmen called “fletchers”. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/25 "2005-07-21T18:45:56Z")
> [@Can Handle the Truth](#): > > You don’t need to carry a whole bunch of javelins; you carry two or three, throw them, then run to the rear to get more. There’s a constant circulation of men, that’s how medium infantry fights. Armies that used a lot of javelins made them simple and cheap, cheaper than an arrow. It’s not the size of the weapon that makes it expensive, but the amount of labor that goes into it. Arrows are labor-intensive because they have to be made really straight and the guide feathers have to be precise. Try making yourself a paper airplane that flies perfectly straight! The people who assembled the feathers even became a special class of craftsmen called “fletchers”. Sounds reasonable, but do we have a cite for this info. The Roman Javelin shown in the picture link above looks quite somplicatedly manufactured, and has a much larger amount of metal used than an arrow has. ---
**Author:** ![Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Can_Handle_the_Truth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/26 "2005-07-21T18:50:07Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > Sounds reasonable, but do we have a cite for this info. The Roman Javelin shown in the picture link above looks quite somplicatedly manufactured, and has a much larger amount of metal used than an arrow has. I’ll work on getting some cites. The Roman _pilum_ was not a typical javelin. No other javelins were as sophisticated as that. Most were just a simple wood shaft with an iron head. ---
**Author:** ![Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Can_Handle_the_Truth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/27 "2005-07-21T19:35:49Z")
Here are some good pictures of typical javelins: [Republican Romans](http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/5919/jav013lg.jpg) with both _pila_ and simple javelins. Note the number carried by the _velite_ on the right. [Persian Cavalry](http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/2461/jav029ze.jpg) [Samnites](http://img336.imageshack.us/img336/7973/jav030ss.jpg) fought three wars with Rome and inflicted one of Rome’s most humiliating defeats at the _Caudine Forks_. [Spanish warrior](http://img318.imageshack.us/img318/5852/jav045qm.jpg) in the army of Hannibal carries one heavy and one light javelin. [Thracian Peltasts](http://img315.imageshack.us/img315/6438/jav056fj.jpg) were recruited by the greeks and macedonians as medium and light infantry. This guy is light. Hope this helps! ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/28 "2005-07-21T19:48:28Z")
> [@Can Handle the Truth](#): > > I’ll work on getting some cites. The Roman _pilum_ was not a typical javelin. No other javelins were as sophisticated as that. Most were just a simple wood shaft with an iron head. Right. I hope I didn’t give the impression that weapon was typical; the _pilum_ is note worthy because it is so exceptional. For a more prosaic example of javelin use, I think this Wiki article on the velites is instructive. Most my ancient warfare reading is about Greece & Rome, so that’s where I have to draw my examples from. The velites were lightly armored and carried javelins (& sometimes bows). They were used for screening: before the battle when the armies were setting up, the youngest, fastest, and most fit were sent out to get within throwing distance of the enemy lines and pelt them with javelins (and arrows). My description is questionable, of course, and the book The Military Instutions of the Romans Vegetius Renatus is a good primary source. This ancient book describes the function of the light Roman troops: > [@](#): > > The following disposition deserves the greatest attention. In the beginning of an engagement, the first and second lines remained immovable on their ground, and the trairii in their usual positions. The light-armed troops, composed as above mentioned, advanced in the front of the line, and attacked the enemy. If they could make them give way, they pursued them; but if they were repulsed by superior bravery or numbers, they retired behind their own heavy armed infantry, which appeared like a wall of iron and renewed the action, at first with their missile weapons, then sword in hand. If they broke the enemy they never pursued them, least they should break their ranks or throw the line into confusion, and lest the enemy, taking advantage of their disorder, should return to the attack and destroy them without difficulty. The pursuit therefore was entirely left to the light-armed troops and the cavalry. By these precautions and dispositions the legion was victorious without danger, or if the contrary happened, was preserved without any considerable loss, for as it is not calculated for pursuit, it is likewise not easily thrown into disorder. And > [@](#): > > Their offensive weapons were large swords, called spathae, and smaller ones called semispathae together with five loaded javelins in the concavity of the shield, which they threw at the first charge. They had likewise two other javelins, the largest of which was composed of a staff five feet and a half long and a triangular head of iron nine inches long. This was formerly called the pilum, but now it is known by the name of spiculum. The soldiers were particularly exercised in the use of this weapon, because when thrown with force and skill it often penetrated the shields of the foot and the cuirasses of the horse. The other javelin was of smaller size; its triangular point was only five inches long and the staff three feet and one half. It was anciently called verriculum but now verutum. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/29 "2005-07-21T19:57:02Z")
> [@](#): > > The Roman Javelin shown in the picture link above looks quite somplicatedly manufactured, and has a much larger amount of metal used than an arrow has. You win the battle and get your spears back, fix them, and use them in the next battle. That was doable but harder than with arrows. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/30 "2005-07-21T20:17:22Z")
> [@js\_africanus](#): > > I’ll disagree with your description as I’m picturing it, but I’ll agree with the basic idea. Although slow loading, this photo of a pilium is good. If you’re talking about the wooden base at the end of the iron shaft, then we are in agreement. Although, IIRC, the iron shaft itself was designed to bend as well. Looking at that picture, I see that there are three nails securing the tang of the head in the triangular wooden head. In the original roman design, it was two wooden pegs. These were weak enough to break on impact, rendering the weapon unusable. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/31 "2005-07-21T20:35:10Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Looking at that picture, I see that there are three nails securing the tang of the head in the triangular wooden head. In the original roman design, it was two wooden pegs. These were weak enough to break on impact, rendering the weapon unusable. I’m sure that over the lifetime of the republic & empire, the design had quite a few variations. But I think we’re on the same page w/ the basic idea. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/32 "2005-07-21T23:00:19Z")
On a side note, I have some little experience using an atalatl. This is a short javelin or spear that’s thrown with a spear thrower (to give the throw more leverage). I did a bit of experimental archaeology at the museum I worked at with it. With a little practice, you could get that sucker into the target (a hay bail, in this case) with impressive authority, especially if you weren’t more than 20 yards away or so. I don’t know if the atalatl was ever used in warfare or not, but I can imagine how intimidating it must have been to have a cloud of javelins heading your direction, thrown from just yards away. ---
**Author:** ![Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Can_Handle_the_Truth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2005, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/33 "2005-07-21T23:37:56Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > I don’t know if the atalatl was ever used in warfare or not, but I can imagine how intimidating it must have been to have a cloud of javelins heading your direction, thrown from just yards away. Many javelins had a “throwing loop” attached which added momentum like a spear thrower, but also giving a spin to the weapon. I wish I could scan the “javelin-throwing sequence” featured on page 51 of John Warry’s [Warfare in the Classical World](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0806127945/qid=1121988765/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_sbs_1/002-7244833-5115261?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) which shows how the throwing loop was used. I highly recommend this book. ---
**Author:** ![Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Can\_Handle\_the\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Can_Handle_the_Truth)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/34 "2005-07-22T00:22:27Z")
[Here](http://img330.imageshack.us/img330/8463/javelin4em.jpg) I drew a picture of a javelin with a throwing loop. The longer the cord was, the more momentum it gave. You can see how it was wrapped around the shaft to make it spin. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/35 "2005-07-25T15:36:02Z")
Has anyone done studies on the effective weapon range of Greek and Roman javelin? It would seem to me that a fairly low trajectory would be helpful in ensuring a hit against a group of men in several rows. Would the speed of a Javelin be slow enough to allow any chance of dodging a single throw? Would multiple javelins thrown at about the same time be needed to hit a particular target that was dodging? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/36 "2005-07-25T19:23:43Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > Has anyone done studies on the effective weapon range of Greek and Roman javelin? Yes, at least for the greek ones and they apparently had a hard time figuring out out they should be thrown and in particular how to use the loop to the best effect. Copies made to the best of the archeologists’s knowledge were even made and tested by athletes in order to figure this out. This answer probably isn’t very helpful since I don’t remember any of the conclusions, nor their range. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/37 "2005-07-25T22:37:03Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > Has anyone done studies on the effective weapon range of Greek and Roman javelin? It would seem to me that a fairly low trajectory would be helpful in ensuring a hit against a group of men in several rows. Would the speed of a Javelin be slow enough to allow any chance of dodging a single throw? Would multiple javelins thrown at about the same time be needed to hit a particular target that was dodging? But the problem with dodging is that you’d have to break formation to dodge. Break formation and you’ll be cut to pieces by the charge that follows the javelin volley. Either way would be fine with the javelin throwers. Remember that the javelin wasn’t imagined as a way to slaughter enemy troops but as a way to disorganize them so they were vulnerable to your shock troops. And in ancient warfare most of the casualties take place after the battle is “over” when victorious troops slaughter routed troops. So one of the main objectives isn’t so much to kill the enemy as to convince him to run away, so you can kill him when he runs away. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/38 "2005-07-25T23:43:05Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But the problem with dodging is that you’d have to break formation to dodge. Break formation and you’ll be cut to pieces by the charge that follows the javelin volley. Either way would be fine with the javelin throwers. Remember that the javelin wasn’t imagined as a way to slaughter enemy troops but as a way to disorganize them so they were vulnerable to your shock troops. And in ancient warfare most of the casualties take place after the battle is “over” when victorious troops slaughter routed troops. So one of the main objectives isn’t so much to kill the enemy as to convince him to run away, so you can kill him when he runs away. I think you are right on the realistic use of Javelin, I was just putting too much value in the discription in the Illiad where Javelin are thrown by one hero against another in essencially single combat. It would seem to me that for single combat it would be relatively easy to angle a great Greek shield in such a way that any javelin throw would be deflected at an accute angle by the shield. Secondly the Javelin seems an excellent weapon to use against a fleeing opponent, as it can be thrown whilst on the run, and wouldn’t be deflected by a fleeing opponents shield. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342/39 "2005-07-26T01:49:02Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > Would the speed of a Javelin be slow enough to allow any chance of dodging a single throw? I saw a fellow get speared by a javelin (he and a buddy were practising in a field, taking turns throwing). Took out one of his nuts. They had no difficulty dodging each other’s throws, as long as they were paying attention. Unfortunately, the fellow was not looking up one time, and by the time he heard the thrower shout, it was too late to dodge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-a-weapon-were-javelin/313342.md?page=1)