# How good of a shot was Lee Harvey Oswald? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 10, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094 "2014-09-10T17:41:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/41 "2014-09-11T03:13:13Z")
I read somewhere the Lee Harvey Oswald was replaced by a lookalike when he was in the Soviet Union, so his USMC drills might not be relevant ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/42 "2014-09-11T03:22:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I was amazed when I saw the grassy knoll in real life. I felt I must be mistaken and was looking at the wrong place. But I wasn’t. > > Here’s a [picture](http://lamarzulli.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/dealey-plaza.jpg) of the grassy knoll. This is the spot where people were claiming somebody was shooting from. Does this really look like a place where you could be hanging out with a rifle? Hell, even in Texas you’d have the police asking you questions. And that’s on a normal business day. If you were standing around with your rifle when the President was expected to be driving by, you’d have been arrested long before he showed up. > > Some people argue the hypothetical shooter was standing further back behind a fence. Except there’s no place to hide behind the fence either. It’s a public parking lot. Which was full of people that day because the president was driving through. I know. I was pissed off when I saw the whole area and it was the first time I realized that even seemingly normal adults can be batshit insane in their own way. Half of my family is from the Dallas/Fort Worth area. They never took me to see Dealey Plaza when I was growing up. I saw movies like JFK when I was growing up and tried to keep an open mind. That was a huge mistake. Sometimes, you shouldn’t listen to movies. The first time I saw it personally was with a group of co-workers when we went to a conference in Dallas and stayed in hotel near there. We walked over out of curiosity and the instant reaction was WTF just like it is for most rational people that see the site of the assassination in person. It is SMALL and even my 12 year old nephew who is a good deer hunter could have pulled that one off. The Grassy Knoll theories are completely and obviously off the rails because it is more of a nearby patch of grass beside the road than a geographical landmark. Most people remember quite well when others fire rifles directly behind them. It doesn’t take any sense and it isn’t really possible at all once you see the area in question personally. I urge anyone that still likes to speculate on JFK assassination conspiracy theories to just go to where it happened. It doesn’t look like you think it does based on photos and videos. That will clear up a whole lot of things for 90+% of the people spouting such ideas off. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/43 "2014-09-11T03:29:18Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Sorry, I meant the first shot. How was it possible that the second two shots were so closely spaced, but he missed the entire car altogether with what should have been the easiest? It was the shortest shot and he had the most time to prepare? In addition to the reasons stated above, it’s pretty natural to correct your later shots based on the errors of your earlier ones. Any good shooter would do that; hell, I do it and I’ve never shot anything more deadly than a pellet gun. After he missed his first shot, he corrected to make the second two. You can go off into the weeds speculating about LHO’s personal history, supposed connections to Communists, and motivations for killing the President without being totally nuts. The “lone wolf” thing does feel a little funny at first blush, though after what scattered reading I’ve done on the subject, I do think that the official story is the true one. But when people start claiming that the shots didn’t come from the Book Depository, you can safely assume they’re not coming from a well-reasoned perspective. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/44 "2014-09-11T03:31:35Z")
I’ve always wondered if that route was routinely used for parades and dignitaries. Otherwise it was just pure luck that LHO got a job in a building with such a perfect shooting location. Today, I’ve heard police counter snipers are deployed. Oswald would be taken out before he ever got a shot off. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/45 "2014-09-11T03:33:08Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > I read somewhere the Lee Harvey Oswald was replaced by a lookalike when he was in the Soviet Union, so his USMC drills might not be relevant No, the prevailing theory is that the _rifle_ was replaced with a lookalike during its shipping to Oswald. Changes _everything_. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/46 "2014-09-11T03:35:16Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > I read somewhere the Lee Harvey Oswald was replaced by a lookalike when he was in the Soviet Union, so his USMC drills might not be relevant I’ve never heard that variation before. Wouldn’t we have his fingerprints from both his Marine enlistment and his arrest? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/47 "2014-09-11T03:41:26Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’ve always wondered if that route was routinely used for parades and dignitaries. Otherwise it was just pure luck that LHO got a job in a building with such a perfect shooting location. It was somewhat luck (bad as it turned out) that Oswald had a job right next to Kennedy’s route. But it wasn’t complete luck. The point of Kennedy’s visit was so he could be seen by lots of voters. It was a Friday around lunchtime - so they planned a route through downtown near a lot of workplaces so people could look out windows or step outside and see the President. Unfortunately, one of the workplaces was the Texas Schoolbook Depository. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/48 "2014-09-11T03:46:19Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > I’ve never heard that variation before. Wouldn’t we have his fingerprints from both his Marine enlistment and his arrest? Absolutely yes. The counter to that would be that KGB plastic surgeons in the USSR in those times had the ability to permanently change someone’s fingerprints. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/49 "2014-09-11T03:52:32Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > Absolutely yes. > > The counter to that would be that KGB plastic surgeons in the USSR in those times had the ability to permanently change someone’s fingerprints. And I see on Wikipedia that LHO has been exhumed and his dental records compared to the corpse in his grave and a surgical scar likewise confirmed a match specifically to investigate this claim. That’s pretty thorough. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/50 "2014-09-11T04:11:42Z")
The thing that you will hardly ever hear anyone mention is that the killing shot was most likely a lucky miss as well. Shooters almost always go for the center of the chest which Oswald was trying for on his previous shots. His shot that killed JFK blew part of his head off. It is extremely unlikely that he was aiming for his head specifically because that is one of the hardest body parts to hit reliably. Most likely, he was aiming for the chest cavity, missed and still managed to achieve his goals just through circumstance and luck on his part. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/51 "2014-09-11T04:33:32Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > The counter to that would be that KGB plastic surgeons in the USSR in those times had the ability to permanently change someone’s fingerprints. Or the KGB had a spy in the Marines to replace Oswald’s fingerprints record. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/52 "2014-09-11T04:33:51Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > I read somewhere the Lee Harvey Oswald was replaced by a lookalike when he was in the Soviet Union, so his USMC drills might not be relevant He returned from the Soviet Union over a year before the assassination. How would a lookalike have been able to keep up an impersonation that long? Don’t forget he was in regular contact with his mother and older brother - they surely would have noticed if an impostor had replaced the Lee Oswald they had known. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/53 "2014-09-11T05:53:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > He returned from the Soviet Union over a year before the assassination. How would a lookalike have been able to keep up an impersonation that long? Don’t forget he was in regular contact with his mother and older brother - they surely would have noticed if an impostor had replaced the Lee Oswald they had known. Clearly they were in on it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/54 "2014-09-11T06:50:43Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > You can go off into the weeds speculating about LHO’s personal history, supposed connections to Communists, and motivations for killing the President without being totally nuts. _Supposed_ connections? Do you dispute that the man openly professed to be a Communist, defected to the USSR, and lived there for several years? ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/55 "2014-09-11T07:17:05Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > The “lone wolf” thing does feel a little funny at first blush. Yeah, that’s what drives our curiosity (and the conspiracy theories), even after a half century. We naturally want to somehow balance the scales of justice, putting an equal weight on each side… We want to believe that a guy who assasinates the most powerful man in the world is himself somebody powerful, or with backing from other powerful people… It leaves you feeling just so damn _unsatisfied_…having to admit that an insignificant loser could be so successful in doing so much damage. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/56 "2014-09-11T07:34:42Z")
Didn’t the FBI actually use Oswald’s rifle to duplicate the shots? I remember reading they set up a mock up of the scene on a wooden tower somewhere and had various people try to duplicate the shots. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/57 "2014-09-11T07:59:57Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Assuming he was working alone and shot JFK from the book depository with a Carcano Model 91/38. I know this is somewhat of a contentious issue, but I just want to know about his marksmanship in the version of events accepted by most historians, so no Grassy Knoll shooters please. > > Boy, that was awkward. Anyway, with that said how good of a marksman was Oswald? Upper 10 percentile of shooters? Olympic calibre shooting? Or did he just ‘get lucky’? The Warren commission investigated this matter and heard testimony by Major Eugene A. Anderson who was assistant head of the Marksmanship Branch, Headquarters Marine Corps and by Master sergeant James A. Zahm who was “the NCO in charge of the Marksmanship Training Unit Armory at the Marksmanship Training Unit in the Weapons Training Battalion Marine Corps School, Quantico, Va.”. They testified that Oswald’s competence as a marksman, when compared to other Marines, wasn’t extraordinary, but still above average, and very good when compared to the average adult shooter in the US. They also testified that making the shot(s) that killed the President would have been very(!) easy for Oswald (given his military background). [http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/html/WC\_Vol11\_0156a.htm](http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/html/WC_Vol11_0156a.htm) [http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/html/WC\_Vol11\_0158b.htm](http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/html/WC_Vol11_0158b.htm) ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/58 "2014-09-11T08:55:32Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Sorry, I meant the first shot. How was it possible that the second two shots were so closely spaced, but he missed the entire car altogether with what should have been the easiest? It was the shortest shot and he had the most time to prepare? > > > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > > > The assumption is jitters. Also, there would have been far more lateral movement in those seconds. After that, it was moderate skill, adrenaline and routine. And the fact that Oswald had never practiced from the position. If he had been able to shoot at a dummy in a robot car for practice a few times, he might have succeeded in one shot. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Yes, and there are two levels of winning an Oscar: winning it, and being one of the losers. 🙂 1. One is winning, two is being nominated but not winning, and three is not being nominated. I guess there could be a fourth, which is not even being in a movie at all that year. But Jeff is right, “unqualified” is actually a score you can get, although it isn’t a ranking. > [@Loach](#): > > I seem to recall that on _Bullshit_ Teller was able to make the shots without any training at all. But the steadiest hands in the Western hemisphere. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/59 "2014-09-11T13:45:39Z")
The takeaway from this thread, as in all JFK assassination threads, is that what most people believe to be true and what the CTers shout from the rooftops is disingenuous bullshit. Nearly every “But what about…” question the average person is cued to ask \*was \*asked, and answered by factual evidence or qualified expertise, by 1965. Very little has changed since then other than in the ridiculous expansion of such questions. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094/60 "2014-09-11T15:42:30Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > No, the prevailing theory is that the _rifle_ was replaced with a lookalike during its shipping to Oswald. Changes _everything_. No, you’re all wrong. It wasn’t JFK and Oswald at all. The entire event was faked by NASA on a sound stage in Burbank using scale models and stop motion animation. However, due to a mismatch between the English units that the American engineers who built the sets were used to and the metric units that Swedish stop-motion animators used for the scale figurines and vehicles, Dealey Plaza looks way out of scale with reality. If you look carefully in the background you can see a fuzzy out-of-focus image of a giant ant in an alleyway which had walked onto the set while filming. And that’s why you shouldn’t mix units or outsource critical parts of your vast conspiracy to Swedish effects houses. Also, don’t bring powdered doughnuts onto your film set, because that’s how you get ants. Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-of-a-shot-was-lee-harvey-oswald/698094.md?page=4)