# How good was Michael Jordan's era? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 21, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761 "2020-01-21T18:06:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/41 "2020-01-24T00:20:18Z")
Jordan is the GOAT and it’s not really that close. Say what you want about zone defenses, just look at the scoring then versus now. Defenses were WAY, WAY tighter in the 80s and 90s and the physical nature of the game (which frequently crossed over into dirty) took a massive toll on most players not named Michael. Today’s players shoot a lot more threes and generally shoot for higher percentages. That doesn’t make them better offensive players, that just means that they had to adapt to the way the game has evolved. If you think MJ wouldn’t have been one of the best 3 point shooters in the league were he playing today you’re out of your head. He’d have been in the gym shooting 30 footers every night like everyone else. But due to his era he developed the fadeaway instead. Similarly, if he got the same kind of bogus fouls that Harden gets these days he’d have been to the line 40 times a game. The only possible argument that can be made about a “weak era” was due to expansion and there being comparatively fewer Euros in the game (but there were several good ones back then). Jordan played before the big influx of high-schoolers that hurt the game in the 00s which LeBron benefited from. I think the expansion thing is way overblown, it’s not like they doubled the size of the league . When you look at teams like the Knicks, Bulls, Wizards, Nets, Suns, non-LeBron Cavs, mid-process Sixers and Bobcats/Hornets can you seriously say that the league is stacked with talent and well-run organizations? ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/42 "2020-01-24T00:24:33Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Very shrewd observation that is often over-looked. You couldn’t play zone defense on MJ, like you can on LeBron. You had to either double-team him, which freed up a man, or play man defense (which no 90’s defender could do successfully). This was partially offset by more lax hand-checking rules, but MJ was too good to let hand checks stop him from at least getting fouled. My point isn’t that Jordan wouldn’t be as good today as he was then – he’d be every bit as good. But instead, imagine if someone of Lebron’s size and versatility played during Jordan’s era. Someone of Lebron’s would be a nightmare one-on-one mismatch for any of the Knicks, Pistons, and Pacers defenders who regularly competed with him during his heyday. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/43 "2020-01-24T00:36:46Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > My point isn’t that Jordan wouldn’t be as good today as he was then – he’d be every bit as good. But instead, imagine if someone of Lebron’s size and versatility played during Jordan’s era. Someone of Lebron’s would be a nightmare one-on-one mismatch for any of the Knicks, Pistons, and Pacers defenders who regularly competed with him during his heyday. Not really. First, if LeBron played back then he wouldn’t get the benefit of today’s medicine and training. He wouldn’t be the guy he is now. You can’t have it both ways. If the 80’s and 90’s guys came up in this era they’d be way bigger, stronger and faster too. Plus those guys in that era weren’t exactly the 50’s Celtics. You think Charles Oakley and Dennis Rodman and Hakeem would have been totally outmatched by LeBron? Sure LeBron would have still been great, but it wouldn’t have been “a man amongst boys”. And they’d have had free reign to put him into the stanchion on the regular, not sure he’d have been as eager to get into the paint as he was against most of the “defenders” playing today. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/44 "2020-01-24T02:04:21Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Jordan is the GOAT and it’s not really that close. Say what you want about zone defenses, just look at the scoring then versus now. Defenses were WAY, WAY tighter in the 80s and 90s and the physical nature of the game (which frequently crossed over into dirty) took a massive toll on most players not named Michael. > > Today’s players shoot a lot more threes and generally shoot for higher percentages. That doesn’t make them better offensive players, that just means that they had to adapt to the way the game has evolved. If you think MJ wouldn’t have been one of the best 3 point shooters in the league were he playing today you’re out of your head. He’d have been in the gym shooting 30 footers every night like everyone else. But due to his era he developed the fadeaway instead. Similarly, if he got the same kind of bogus fouls that Harden gets these days he’d have been to the line 40 times a game. > > The only possible argument that can be made about a “weak era” was due to expansion and there being comparatively fewer Euros in the game (but there were several good ones back then). Jordan played before the big influx of high-schoolers that hurt the game in the 00s which LeBron benefited from. I think the expansion thing is way overblown, it’s not like they doubled the size of the league . When you look at teams like the Knicks, Bulls, Wizards, Nets, Suns, non-LeBron Cavs, mid-process Sixers and Bobcats/Hornets can you seriously say that the league is stacked with talent and well-run organizations? Great points. And I would like to remind y’all that the shrug game was because the national press kept talking up how the Bulls’s opponent was going to ‘beat them with threes’. So what did Michael do? Scored 6 threes in the first half, 6-6, a record which stood for years, giving yet another iconic moment such that I don’t even have to name the opponent almost 30 years later. And that’s another thing about Jordan - he was the King of The Moment: The 63 Point Game The Shot The Shrug Game “Like Mike. I want to be like Mike.” 72-10 The Flu Game The Final Shot “Through the rafters, off the speakers, bounce off the 15th row seats, nothing but net” ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/45 "2020-01-24T02:23:09Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > Not really. First, if LeBron played back then he wouldn’t get the benefit of today’s medicine and training. He wouldn’t be the guy he is now. You can’t have it both ways. If the 80’s and 90’s guys came up in this era they’d be way bigger, stronger and faster too. Are you saying that Lebron wouldn’t be 6’9 and 250 pounds – because that’s what he is: a 6’9 and 250 pound beast. You may recall that there was this guy named Shaquille O’Neal, who was 7’0 and weighed about 355 pounds, and while everyone would unanimously agree that Shaquille O’Neal wasn’t exactly as skilled as Michael Jordan (hell he wasn’t even as skilled Olajuwon), he was an unstoppable force of nature. Are you gonna complain that Shaq had, um, “medicine” and “training”? It’s called genetics, and Lebron has the genes. That’s just a stupid argument. > [@Omniscient](#): > > Plus those guys in that era weren’t exactly the 50’s Celtics. You think Charles Oakley and Dennis Rodman and Hakeem would have been totally outmatched by LeBron? Sure LeBron would have still been great, but it wouldn’t have been “a man amongst boys”. And they’d have had free reign to put him into the stanchion on the regular, not sure he’d have been as eager to get into the paint as he was against most of the “defenders” playing today. Yeah the 1950s Celtics that played in a country club league with almost all white guys – keep goin’. LOL! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/46 "2020-01-24T03:23:57Z")
It’s not a stupid argument - Lebron had era-specific advantages which previous players, even Shaq, did not. The control of his career is an obvious one, rule changes are another, and the continual improvements in therapy and rehab which contributed to, what, 16 straight seasons without a major injury are a third. I look at the two as 1 and 1a, but MJ will always be 1. But you know who may come into the conversation, for a unique reason? If the man can bring 3 rings to 3 NBA teams while being Finals MVP on all three rings, Kawhi Leonard may have a claim to being one of the greatest post-season players ever, which puts him in the GOAT conversation alongside Bird, Johnson, and Hakeem. Anyone who can bring a championship to both the Raptors and Clippers, while giving the Spurs’s Duncan his fifth (shades of the 1st title, with Duncan playing the role of the Admiral) is worthy of consideration. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/47 "2020-01-24T13:35:52Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > It’s not a stupid argument - Lebron had era-specific advantages which previous players, even Shaq, did not. The control of his career is an obvious one, rule changes are another, and the continual improvements in therapy and rehab which contributed to, what, 16 straight seasons without a major injury are a third. I don’t think there’s any way we can attribute Lebron’s health to advances in medicine and training. NBA players suffer severe injuries now, just as they always have. If you want to make the argument that Lebron is able to recover and stay fresher for games from one game to the next due to advances in training and medicine, I might go along with that. But it’s not like MJ was living in the dark ages. > [@JohnT](#): > > I look at the two as 1 and 1a, but MJ will always be 1. For the record, I more or less agree that Jordan was better - he’s the best player I’ve ever seen, and the one thing that still separates Jordan from The King is Jordan’s ability to finish games with huge plays in the most important moments. In this regard, I think Kobe Bryant evolved into someone more comparable to MJ than Lebron has. The only disagreement is this notion that Jordan’s game was miles ahead of Lebron’s - it’s better, but not by much when you look at all the criteria. > [@JohnT](#): > > But you know who may come into the conversation, for a unique reason? If the man can bring 3 rings to 3 NBA teams while being Finals MVP on all three rings, Kawhi Leonard may have a claim to being one of the greatest post-season players ever, which puts him in the GOAT conversation alongside Bird, Johnson, and Hakeem. Anyone who can bring a championship to both the Raptors and Clippers, while giving the Spurs’s Duncan his fifth (shades of the 1st title, with Duncan playing the role of the Admiral) is worthy of consideration. I don’t disagree at all. Leonard is quietly becoming one of the league’s all-time great players, and I absolutely agree with your point about playing on different teams. Being able to win with the same players and same coaching staff is great and all, but it says something when someone can be championship-level great on two or three different teams. That’s not to say that Jordan couldn’t have won elsewhere - I’m convinced he absolutely could have and would have had he left Chicago earlier. But even as we saw during his time in Chicago: Jordan didn’t win titles until he had the right combination of players and coaches around him. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/48 "2020-01-24T17:39:27Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > Are you saying that Lebron wouldn’t be 6’9 and 250 pounds – because that’s what he is: a 6’9 and 250 pound beast. He’d have been hurt a lot more. He’d have been knicked up and slowed down a lot more. He would have been running and lifting, not doing yoga and whatever other new regimens these guys do today that keeps them healthier than they ever were back then. He probably would have been carrying a little unnecessary weight. He’d have been forced to play in the paint a lot more thereby taking more punishment and needing the mass. There’s a shitload of NBA players who are 6’9" and 250…not sure why you think that makes him special, it that he’s that big playing in space which makes him rare and that’s largely due to this era’s trends. > [@](#): > > Yeah the 1950s Celtics that played in a country club league with almost all white guys – keep goin’. LOL! The fuck you talkin’ bout? ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/49 "2020-01-24T18:28:25Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Nah, they just got old. Or else it wouldn’t have taken 7 years. Or are you saying that he had some huge leap in ability between years 6 and 7? And coincidentally, at the same time that he got a new head coach and a brand new system? > > Come on, he’s not LeBron, who took a team of no-names to the Finals, and whose teams all become championship quality once he arrives, and then fall apart once he leaves. The Bulls were still solid contenders for the title for the 1 year that Jordan was out (not 2 years as his fan-boys consistently repeat). I will agree that Bird just got old. But Isiah and The Bad Boys were still going strong when Jordan finally figured how to beat them in the playoffs in 1991. If I remember correctly it was a sweep and the Piston’s walked off the floor in shame before the final game was even finished. And after dropping the Piston’s Jordan literally took ring #6 from Magic in the finals. Yes, I think the addition of Phil Jackson and the triangle along with Pippen finally emerging into his own were big factors as to why the Bulls went on such a tear in the 90s. Pippen’s defense on Magic in the finals should not be understated. I really don’t want to derail the thread here but…(dramatic pause)…I truly cannot understand why anyone who has actually watched the game over multiple decades can claim that Lebron belongs in the greatest of all time conversation. Sure the guy is a statistical nightmare and he has won a lot of games on every level he has played. But to compare him to Jordan is huge insult to Jordan and all that he accomplished. Jordan had to beat a lot of the all time greats to win his championships. Lebron has had to beat _who_ exactly? And how many no-names knocked him out of the playoffs over the years? How many unremarkable teams sent him home in the finals? In my mind Lebron is like Peyton Manning. An awesome statistical nightmare during the regular season but frequently failing to close when it matters most in the playoffs. And I say all this as a life long Laker fan. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/50 "2020-01-24T18:38:11Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > If he beat them first time around, then maybe. But Jordan lost to Bird in '86 and '87, and Thomas in '88, '89, and '90. By the time Jordan beat Magic, the Lakers hadn’t won the championship for two years already (because of Thomas and the Pistons). As **Jackknifed Juggernaut** said, there’s a lot more to it than Jordan’s greatness ending the championship eras of those guys. Bird and his Celtics teams and The Bad Boys are all time great teams. Some of the best to ever do it. So of course Jordan needed time to learn and grow to be able to beat them. The fact that he went home every summer and came back stronger until he was strong enough to climb all the way to the top of the mountain is a testament to not just the greatness of Jordan but the greatness of the opponents he had to beat. You win a championship against a Dirk Nowitzki and nobodies gonna care. You beat Magic/Bird/Isiah and everyone’s gonna remember. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/51 "2020-01-24T18:42:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I have never understood the bad thing about being 3-5 in the Finals. How many guys have won three Finals at all? > > I mean, losing the Finals means you won three playoff series. 3-5 is objectively superior to 3-0. LeBron’s playoff record may not be as good as Jordan’s but it’s awfully elite. > > The idea James is somehow lacking in drive to win is ridiculous. He’s got three rings and was MVP in all of them, and he’s won a shitload of series and games. James scores more points per game in playoff games than regular season games. He clearly elevates his game. Nothing wrong with being 3-5 in the finals…if you’re talking about a great NBA player. But we’re not talking about great. We’re talking about the _greatest_. The baddest mofo to ever do it. And 3-5 puts him behind Jordan, Magic, Kobe, etc. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/52 "2020-01-24T18:57:19Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > Bird and his Celtics teams and The Bad Boys are all time great teams. Some of the best to ever do it. So of course Jordan needed time to learn and grow to be able to beat them. The fact that he went home every summer and came back stronger until he was strong enough to climb all the way to the top of the mountain is a testament to not just the greatness of Jordan but the greatness of the opponents he had to beat. > > You win a championship against a Dirk Nowitzki and nobodies gonna care. You beat Magic/Bird/Isiah and everyone’s gonna remember. Narrator: Dirk Nowitzki won the championship against Lebron. Lebron’s 3 championships came against young Durant, old Duncan (who came back to kick LBJ ass next year - thanks Kawhi!), and Curry (73 win team). ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/53 "2020-01-24T19:33:59Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > He’d have been hurt a lot more. He’d have been knicked up and slowed down a lot more. He would have been running and lifting, not doing yoga and whatever other new regimens these guys do today that keeps them healthier than they ever were back then. He probably would have been carrying a little unnecessary weight. He’d have been forced to play in the paint a lot more thereby taking more punishment and needing the mass. There’s a shitload of NBA players who are 6’9" and 250…not sure why you think that makes him special, it that he’s that big playing in space which makes him rare and that’s largely due to this era’s trends. Put LeBron on a team with Karl Malone and that takes two titles away from Jordan’s Bulls. Put Lebron on a team where the Bulls have to defend a two-headed monster the same way opposing teams had to defend against theirs, with illegal defenses and rules that favored half-court ball, and Jordan’s impressive statistics would still be impressive but not nearly as impressive as they turned out to be. On the flip side, let’s see how many titles a team like the Bulls would have won if they’d had to run up and down the court and constantly rotate to try to stop the open three against a team with three or four consistently accurate three point shooters. They wouldn’t have won six - that’s almost certain. Jordan played when the game was more physical, but that also devolved into just bad basketball that was painful to watch. I mean I suppose it was entertaining to watch the Bulls and Knicks and (later the Knicks and Heat) turn basketball into on-the-court tag-team wrestling matches, but it was a crap product to watch, and the players became less skilled over time. Half-court basketball, isn’t basketball. There’s a reason why the U.S. started losing international competitions and later committed to developing a better game that emphasized returning to the fundamentals of ball movement and shooting accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/54 "2020-01-24T20:12:47Z")
I did not know Jordan was on the rules committee. Amazing. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/55 "2020-01-25T00:16:06Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I did not know Jordan was on the rules committee. Amazing. Never said he was. What’s your point big boy? ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2020, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/56 "2020-01-25T05:18:33Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > Bird and his Celtics teams and The Bad Boys are all time great teams. Some of the best to ever do it. So of course Jordan needed time to learn and grow to be able to beat them. The fact that he went home every summer and came back stronger until he was strong enough to climb all the way to the top of the mountain is a testament to not just the greatness of Jordan but the greatness of the opponents he had to beat. > > You win a championship against a Dirk Nowitzki and nobodies gonna care. You beat Magic/Bird/Isiah and everyone’s gonna remember. So you really are saying that he was materially better in year 7 than in year 6? No, you have it backwards, LeBron James passed Jordan a long time ago in terms of overall basketball ability and acumen. The fact that he didn’t win as many rings is a random outcome. There is no way you could possibly think that LeBron wouldn’t have been at least as successful as Jordan were you to switch them on the Bulls. This is not an insult to Jordan to any way. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/57 "2020-01-27T14:36:52Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > So you really are saying that he was materially better in year 7 than in year 6? No, you have it backwards, LeBron James passed Jordan a long time ago in terms of overall basketball ability and acumen. The fact that he didn’t win as many rings is a random outcome. There is no way you could possibly think that LeBron wouldn’t have been at least as successful as Jordan were you to switch them on the Bulls. This is not an insult to Jordan to any way. Sorry for the late reply… - Jordan had to learn how to overcome “The Jordan Rules” employed by the Pistons which required him to improve his physical strength and polish his skills until they shined. I guess that means I do think he got better in year 7 vs previous years. - And there aren’t enough words you can use to convince me Lebron is more skilled and has a better basketball IQ than Kobe much less Jordan. I will acknowledge he is an athletic phenom but he relies on his athletic prowess to overpower is opponents instead of being more skilled. That is unless you consider traveling and offensive fouls skills. - IMHO, in a 7 game series the best team will almost always win. The fact that Lebron has lost so many final series is not some random outcome, it is proof positive that his teams weren’t good enough to call themselves champions. - If you swap Jordan with Lebron then the Pistons would have beat the shit out of him and intimidated him to the point where he would be sitting next to Scottie on the bench complaining about “migraines.” Or do you think Lebron would have no problems with defenders like Rodman, Laimbeer, Mahorn, Oakley, etc. in a league that allowed you to do anything short of landing a punch? Sure the Bulls _might_ have gone on to win a ring or 2 during that time period provided Magic, Isiah, Hakeem, Ewing, Shaq, etc were all having an off year at the same time. - Now if you swap Jordan onto anyone of the teams Lebron lead to the finals, how do you think His Airness would perform in a league that doesn’t allow hand checking and hard fouls? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/58 "2020-01-27T17:56:17Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > Nothing wrong with being 3-5 in the finals…if you’re talking about a great NBA player. But we’re not talking about great. We’re talking about the _greatest_. The baddest mofo to ever do it. And 3-5 puts him behind Jordan, Magic, Kobe, etc. Yes, Magic won five rings, and LeBron won three. I am totally unconvinced that establishes Magic as the greater player. It’s a flawed way of measuring it because it ignores the imapct of the other players on the team. If LeBron had won NO titles, that would be compelling evidence his greatness had a bit of a hole on it. Frankly, though, the difference between five and three isn’t that big of a deal. Just measuring guys by rings won will inevitably lead you down to preposterous conclusions. Tom Heinsohn won seven rings but he wasn’t a greater player than Michael Jordan. Stacey King has more rings than Wilt Chamberlain, and Serge Ibaka has more rings than Karl Malone. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/59 "2020-01-27T19:35:07Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Yes, Magic won five rings, and LeBron won three. I am totally unconvinced that establishes Magic as the greater player. It’s a flawed way of measuring it because it ignores the imapct of the other players on the team. > > If LeBron had won NO titles, that would be compelling evidence his greatness had a bit of a hole on it. Frankly, though, the difference between five and three isn’t that big of a deal. > > Just measuring guys by rings won will inevitably lead you down to preposterous conclusions. Tom Heinsohn won seven rings but he wasn’t a greater player than Michael Jordan. Stacey King has more rings than Wilt Chamberlain, and Serge Ibaka has more rings than Karl Malone. Come on man, you know damn well we’re not _just_ counting rings so I won’t even bother to address that. There is no one statistic or metric that can be used to accurately compare players from different generations or eras. In my world, you must first be better than the vast majority of your contemporaries before you can be included in the greatest of all time conversation. In short, you need to be _The Man_ on your team for an extended period of time and your ring count needs to be greater than (or at least equal to) your peers before you can be elevated to comparisons between the all time greats. Lebron’s ring count is greater than or equal to his peers so he gets included in the convo but he falls well short of the top of the list as his resume is a lot weaker than some of the best to ever do it. I am totally convinced that Magic’s 5 rings proves he is/was better than Lebron. I mean how many guys have won 5 championships while being _The Man_ in any sport? And Jordan’s 6 puts him in a class by himself (in the modern era). ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/60 "2020-01-27T21:41:18Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > Come on man, you know damn well we’re not _just_ counting rings so I won’t even bother to address that. > > There is no one statistic or metric that can be used to accurately compare players from different generations or eras. In my world, you must first be better than the vast majority of your contemporaries before you can be included in the greatest of all time conversation. In short, you need to be _The Man_ on your team for an extended period of time and your ring count needs to be greater than (or at least equal to) your peers before you can be elevated to comparisons between the all time greats. Lebron’s ring count is greater than or equal to his peers so he gets included in the convo but he falls well short of the top of the list as his resume is a lot weaker than some of the best to ever do it. > > I am totally convinced that Magic’s 5 rings proves he is/was better than Lebron. I mean how many guys have won 5 championships while being _The Man_ in any sport? And Jordan’s 6 puts him in a class by himself (in the modern era). So then you should agree that Kobe (God rest his soul) isn’t actually in the conversation. He was only “The Man” for 2 of his rings. IIRC, Shaq was for the first 3. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761.md?page=4)