# How good was Michael Jordan's era? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [January 21, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761 "2020-01-21T18:06:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/61 "2020-01-27T21:59:42Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > In my world, you must first be better than the vast majority of your contemporaries before you can be included in the greatest of all time conversation. In short, you need to be _The Man_ on your team for an extended period of time and your ring count needs to be greater than (or at least equal to) your peers before you can be elevated to comparisons between the all time greats. Lebron’s ring count is greater than or equal to his peers so he gets included in the convo but he falls well short of the top of the list as his resume is a lot weaker than some of the best to ever do it. It’s not “a lot weaker.” That just isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/62 "2020-01-27T22:34:56Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s not “a lot weaker.” That just isn’t true. Were the 5 times LeBron lost in the finals all his teammates fault? And the 3 he won only because of him? Because I heard it stated earlier in this thread that Jordan only won 6 because of his teammates and the system/coaches. I don’t see how it can be both ways. Either you are responsible for your record or you are not. If LeBron isn’t at fault for the 5 he’s lost then he shouldn’t get credit for the 3 he won. There is recency bias for LeBron. He’s the latest great player, but every latest great player can’t just automatically be the GOAT. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/63 "2020-01-27T22:51:12Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Were the 5 times LeBron lost in the finals all his teammates fault? And the 3 he won only because of him? It’s not an either/or thing. You aren’t thinking along the margins. Again, though, it has to be pointed out that **reaching the Finals isn’t a failure.** How many players in modern times have even been in the Finals eight times? Would you rather he be 3-0 in the Finals? > [@](#): > > =Because I heard it stated earlier in this thread that Jordan only won 6 because of his teammates and the system/coaches. Was the person who stated that using the screen name “RickJay”? ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/64 "2020-01-27T22:53:19Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Were the 5 times LeBron lost in the finals all his teammates fault? And the 3 he won only because of him? > > Because I heard it stated earlier in this thread that Jordan only won 6 because of his teammates and the system/coaches. > > I don’t see how it can be both ways. Either you are responsible for your record or you are not. If LeBron isn’t at fault for the 5 he’s lost then he shouldn’t get credit for the 3 he won. > > There is recency bias for LeBron. He’s the latest great player, but every latest great player can’t just automatically be the GOAT. You’re missing the point. To the extent that we’re using LeBron’s lack of rings as part of the argument, I can point to the many failures of Jordan as well. Jordan would never be able to elevate the teams that LeBron has led. We know this, because Jordan couldn’t even make the Finals with far superior teams than LEBron has ever had. Plus he and Pippen had 3 years together to gel as a cohesive force. You couldn’t even name the 2nd best player on the first Cavs team that he took to the Finals. Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were 8 time All-NBA first team defenders. Phil Jackson is one of the greatest coaches of all-time. Even in Miami, Wade was excellent, but past his prime, and Bosh never became a great player. Also, just look at the records of LeBron’s teams before he got there, while he was there, and after he left. When Jordan stepped away, the Bulls were still contenders and barely lost to the Knicks. Jordan was no doubt a truly great player. But LeBron is just simply better in every facet of the game except straight scoring. When talking about LeBron’s “manufactured” titles, remember that the Bulls lost to Shaq’s Magic, which caused them to bring in Rodman, a man responsible for keeping the Bulls down for years. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/65 "2020-01-27T23:01:29Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > You’re missing the point. To the extent that we’re using LeBron’s lack of rings as part of the argument, I can point to the many failures of Jordan as well. Jordan would never be able to elevate the teams that LeBron has led. We know this, because Jordan couldn’t even make the Finals with far superior teams than LEBron has ever had. Plus he and Pippen had 3 years together to gel as a cohesive force. You couldn’t even name the 2nd best player on the first Cavs team that he took to the Finals. Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were 8 time All-NBA first team defenders. Phil Jackson is one of the greatest coaches of all-time. > > Even in Miami, Wade was excellent, but past his prime, and Bosh never became a great player. Also, just look at the records of LeBron’s teams before he got there, while he was there, and after he left. When Jordan stepped away, the Bulls were still contenders and barely lost to the Knicks. Jordan was no doubt a truly great player. But LeBron is just simply better in every facet of the game except straight scoring. > > When talking about LeBron’s “manufactured” titles, remember that the Bulls lost to Shaq’s Magic, which caused them to bring in Rodman, a man responsible for keeping the Bulls down for years. Like I said, Jordan only won because of his teammates and coach, and LeBron only lost because of his teammates? Nonsense. Motivated reasoning. The Heatles had other players besides the big three signing up for cheap just to play with them. Cough Ray Allen cough. Then Cleveland 2.0 with number one overall pick Kyrie, Kevin Love, JR Smith etc. You are trying to have it both ways. If you discredit Jordan because of Pippen (what did he do in Portland again?) but then claim LeBron never had any good teams? How can anyone be expected to buy this revisionist stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/66 "2020-01-27T23:06:41Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Like I said, Jordan only won because of his teammates and coach, and LeBron only lost because of his teammates?.. Where did I say this? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/67 "2020-01-27T23:08:15Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s not an either/or thing. You aren’t thinking along the margins. > > Again, though, it has to be pointed out that **reaching the Finals isn’t a failure.** How many players in modern times have even been in the Finals eight times? Would you rather he be 3-0 in the Finals? The 90s Buffalo Bills went to **4 straight superbowls** the 1970s Steelers also went to 4. Which team do you rank higher in greatness factor? Which team to you figure would win head to head? Where would you put your money? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/68 "2020-01-27T23:09:31Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Where did I say this? What? That was the entire gist of your post. The one I was replying to. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/69 "2020-01-27T23:19:35Z")
You said: -Jordan could never have elevated any of LeBron’s teams that he elevated -Jordan lost with far superior teammates than LeBron has ever played with - You credit Pippen, Rodman and Jackson with the 6 titles saying that they are the reason he won them So that adds up to - Jordan only won because of his teammates and coach, and LeBron only lost because of his teammates. Which is absurd on its face. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/70 "2020-01-28T00:00:05Z")
> [@BeagleJesus](#): > > Jordan was the man who single-handedly (yes, yes team sport) ended Bird’s, Isiah’s and Magic’s championship eras. And he did it in that order. That’s hilarious. You don’t think maybe Father Time had something to do with it too, as Bird, Thomas and Johnson had already dominated the 1980s and so were wearing down due to attrition by the time Jordan’s Bulls took over ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/71 "2020-01-28T01:54:57Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > You said: > > -Jordan could never have elevated any of LeBron’s teams that he elevated > -Jordan lost with far superior teammates than LeBron has ever played with > > - You credit Pippen, Rodman and Jackson with the 6 titles saying that they are the reason he won them > > So that adds up to - Jordan only won because of his teammates and coach, and LeBron only lost because of his teammates. > > Which is absurd on its face. This really is hilarious. The Cult of Jordan still exists! All I can say is, there are a lot of you. Unfortunately there hasn’t been a single comment in this entire thread that demonstrates with any objective criteria that Jordan was in any way superior to LeBron. Just lots of faith-based arguments that I hear repeatedly on Sports Talk radio. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/72 "2020-01-28T02:33:25Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > The 90s Buffalo Bills went to **4 straight superbowls** the 1970s Steelers also went to 4. Which team do you rank higher in greatness factor? Which team to you figure would win head to head? Where would you put your money? 4-0 is way better than 0-4. LeBron isn’t 0-4, though, and he is not a team. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/73 "2020-01-28T02:48:28Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > The 90s Buffalo Bills went to **4 straight superbowls** the 1970s Steelers also went to 4. Which team do you rank higher in greatness factor? Which team to you figure would win head to head? Where would you put your money? So who are the players you’re comparing here? ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/74 "2020-01-28T05:39:40Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > This really is hilarious. The Cult of Jordan still exists! All I can say is, there are a lot of you. Unfortunately there hasn’t been a single comment in this entire thread that demonstrates with any objective criteria that Jordan was in any way superior to LeBron. Just lots of faith-based arguments that I hear repeatedly on Sports Talk radio. Are you arguing you DIDN’T say those things? Because it’s pretty easy to see what you wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/75 "2020-01-28T11:50:22Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Are you arguing you DIDN’T say those things? > > Because it’s pretty easy to see what you wrote. What things are you referring to? What you quoted? ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/76 "2020-01-28T12:44:48Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > This really is hilarious. The Cult of Jordan still exists! All I can say is, there are a lot of you. Unfortunately there hasn’t been a single comment in this entire thread that demonstrates with any objective criteria that Jordan was in any way superior to LeBron. Just lots of faith-based arguments that I hear repeatedly on Sports Talk radio. 538’s analytics method says Jordan was better (by the thinnest of margins) and that was linked on page 1. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/77 "2020-01-28T13:21:57Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > So then you should agree that Kobe (God rest his soul) isn’t actually in the conversation. He was only “The Man” for 2 of his rings. IIRC, Shaq was for the first 3. I think Kobe was The Man for 3 of his 5 championships. Obviously the 1A/1B dynamic between Shaq and Kobe is difficult to break down due to the immense talent of both guys but I think Kobe had finally overtaken Shaq as The Man (or 1A) on the Lakers by the third championship. FYI…I do think the fact that Kobe wasn’t The Man for all 5 does tarnish his position in the greatest of all time debate and firmly places him (somewhere) behind Magic in the rankings. ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/78 "2020-01-28T13:33:23Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It’s not an either/or thing. You aren’t thinking along the margins. > > Again, though, it has to be pointed out that **reaching the Finals isn’t a failure.** How many players in modern times have even been in the Finals eight times? Would you rather he be 3-0 in the Finals? I totally agree that reaching the finals and losing is not a failure for a great player. But once again I would like to point out that were not talking about great. We’re talking about the great_est_ and losing on the biggest stage more often than not does not place you high in the rankings. If memory serves, every time Lebron faced a quality squad in the lower rounds of the playoffs (like the 2008-2010 Celtics) he got his ass handed to him. And every time he made the finals he had a cake walk through all the scrub teams of the east. And once in the finals he frequently got his ass handed to him by the superior squads from the west (3-5). How many scrub teams did Lebron plow through on his frequent trips to finals while he was in the east? Better question, how many quality, top notch teams did Lebron have to beat to reach the finals? ---
**Author:** ![BeagleJesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5daacb/32.png) [@BeagleJesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeagleJesus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/79 "2020-01-28T13:40:57Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > Even in Miami, Wade was excellent, but past his prime, and Bosh never became a great player. Also, just look at the records of LeBron’s teams before he got there, while he was there, and after he left. When Jordan stepped away, the Bulls were still contenders and barely lost to the Knicks. Jordan was no doubt a truly great player. But LeBron is just simply better in every facet of the game except straight scoring. Come on man! Wade, Bosh and Lebron were all smack dab in the middle of their prime years and at the height of their abilities when they grouped up. That’s the main reason why everyone was giving them shit about the move. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761/80 "2020-01-28T13:45:45Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > This really is hilarious. The Cult of Jordan still exists! All I can say is, there are a lot of you. Unfortunately there hasn’t been a single comment in this entire thread that demonstrates with any objective criteria that Jordan was in any way superior to LeBron. Just lots of faith-based arguments that I hear repeatedly on Sports Talk radio. But that was the argument you made. No cult is needed to see the flaws in it, JJ. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-good-was-michael-jordans-era/846761.md?page=5)