How good was Michael Jordan's era?

The Game Room
21

Nah, they just got old. Or else it wouldn’t have taken 7 years. Or are you saying that he had some huge leap in ability between years 6 and 7? And coincidentally, at the same time that he got a new head coach and a brand new system?

Come on, he’s not LeBron, who took a team of no-names to the Finals, and whose teams all become championship quality once he arrives, and then fall apart once he leaves. The Bulls were still solid contenders for the title for the 1 year that Jordan was out (not 2 years as his fan-boys consistently repeat).

22

Nah right back at you.

LeBron was absent in the first finals with the Heat. A total non factor. You can’t do that and be considered anywhere near being the GOAT.

Case closed.

23

This makes no sense. Jordan couldn’t even sniff the Finals for 6 years. And LeBron has proven that he can elevate any team, while Jordan could only do it under one coach, under one system, and with another Dream Teamer next to him the whole way through.

That said, Jordan is indeed the GOAT, but that has as much to do with his place in history than just basketball ability. Just like Ali is the GOAT, but not too many boxing experts would rank him #1 pound-for-pound.

Not taking anything away from Jordan, but LeBron would tear him up on the court. Bigger, faster, stronger, better passer, rebounder and 3-point shot.

24

Yes, Jordan played in 1994-1995, but only seventeen games.

The Bulls got better the instant he came back. Until he returned that season, they were 34-32. After that they were 13-4. Guy had an impact.

I’m actually quite open to the idea LeBron is the greatest ever - we are starting to get to the point where even if one says they were equally great at their peak, LeBron’s career is just getting a lot longer… but let’s not pretend Jordan didn’t deliver teams to the promised land.

25

Except for that manufactured big 3 in Miami against Dallas. He didn’t elevate anything or anyone in that series.

Nah. Jordan has him in mental toughness, competitiveness, drive to win. He’d kill him, and it would mostly be over even before the opening tip due to those factors. Nobody has ever been better at getting in his opponents head and has had a more fierce desire to not only win but to completely destroy those he competes against. LeBron is 3-5 in the finals. Come on. He is anything but a sure thing in big moments.

26

If he beat them first time around, then maybe. But Jordan lost to Bird in '86 and '87, and Thomas in '88, '89, and '90. By the time Jordan beat Magic, the Lakers hadn’t won the championship for two years already (because of Thomas and the Pistons). As Jackknifed Juggernaut said, there’s a lot more to it than Jordan’s greatness ending the championship eras of those guys.

I’d argue he’s a big part of the reason the Pistons kept Jordan in check and got past the Bulls in 88-90. His oddness came later; back then he was known mostly for his ferocious defense.

27

I think if we ever master time travel, one of the first things we need to do is set up cross-temporal sports competitions to settle these debates.

28

Game 1: LBJ’s over MJ’s, but Lebron #'s 1,3,6,8,10-12 are kinda pissed off at Jordan trash talking and they get on Twitter, complaining how all the MJ’s disrespect the game. All the Jordans leaves to gamble away $96,000, not returning to their hotel room until 7am. By mutual consent: They don’t gamble against each other. Except in how much they can fleece other people. (MJ 1 wins this contest, every night, because he’s the #1 MJ.)

Game 2: MJ’s over LBJ’s. Lebron #'s 1-6, 8, 10-12 are just bitching to the refs, and MJ3 gets tossed out for relentlessly taunting LBJ3, which pisses all the other Jordan’s off who then convince themselves the refs are throwing the game to LBJ, using their anger to fuel their game. After the game, the Jordan’s grab #3, give him some cigars, and all take bets as to whose cigar Jordan 3 will smoke first. (MJ1 wins this again.) The Lebrons? They’re on Insta, except for LBJ3 who mysteriously chartered a flight and went to visit his buddy Chris Paul.

Game 3: MJ’s over LBJ’s. In a surprising development, LBJ3 decides to trade himself to the OKC Thunder telling his @KingJames followers on Twitter “The Decision is Now.” Whatever. Regardless, the MJ’s relentlessly, brutally taunt the other LBJ’s about #3’s actions, so much so that LBJ 1 and 6 have to sit out much of the 4th quarter, claiming cramps brought about by faulty air conditioning. MJ’s celebrate their win by… what else… playing 36 holes of golf the next morning.

Game 4: LBJ’s over MJ’s. LBJ gets his focus back, overpowers the slightly-hungover and tired MJ’s. Jordan is yelling at Jordan - “Who’s open, Mike? Who’s open?” “…Mike.” “Well, then give Mike the damned ball!”… but a stunning LBJ block in the closing 2 minutes sealed the deal. For the first time this series, the MJ’s go quietly to their hotel rooms… where they text the worlds most beautiful women and get them to come visit, because, shit, this is Michael Jordan we’re talking about here and he’s not going back to his hotel room to sulk. That’s what LBJ does.

Game 5: MJ’s vs LBJ’s. MJ’s are rejuvenated, vicious, and full of themselves as they talk about the previous nights antics. The LBJ’s pull out to an early lead, only to lose it as LBJ’s 2,4,6, and 9-12 seemingly all lose focus and desire to win the game in the 2nd half. The MJ’s go out that night to buy their victory cigars because:

Game 6: Nobody took MJ to 7 games in the NBA Finals. Nobody. And not even the 12 Lebrons, who all… right now… are thinking of who they want to play with next season, while the MJ’s? They not only want to beat LBJ in this game, they demand that LBJ knows he’s been beaten and who beat them. And they do.

MJ 4, LBJ 2.

29

Early on in Jordan’s era, it was perfectly OK for Laimbeer or some other goon like him to just throw Mike onto the floor. You can’t do shit like that anymore. So yes, the era matters, and IMO, in Jordan’s favor as the GOAT.

30

I have never understood the bad thing about being 3-5 in the Finals. How many guys have won three Finals at all?

I mean, losing the Finals means you won three playoff series. 3-5 is objectively superior to 3-0. LeBron’s playoff record may not be as good as Jordan’s but it’s awfully elite.

The idea James is somehow lacking in drive to win is ridiculous. He’s got three rings and was MVP in all of them, and he’s won a shitload of series and games. James scores more points per game in playoff games than regular season games. He clearly elevates his game.

31

Great analysis, post.

Let’s remember that Lebron carried some very average teams into the playoffs, like he did in 2007 when he was a member of the Cavs.

I’d also point out that Lebron is arguably a better defender and rebounder. MJ was almost incontrovertibly a better offensive player but Lebron is such a beast at both ends of the floor that he has worn other teams out.

32

There were advantages and disadvantages. Yes, there was roughhousing and hand-checking, which favored defenders. But the illegal defenses absolutely favored explosive players like Jordan and when you threw in another explosive player like Pippen, the Bulls were unstoppable.

Lebron’s arguably among the greatest rebounders and defenders of his time, and he’s doing it in a league in which being a defender ain’t easy.

33

Funny thing is, Laimbeer wouldn’t have been able to throw LeBron to the floor. Sure, LeBron might have flopped to get a foul, but not due to being over-powered by Bill. That era never experienced a specimen like LeBron. The speed of Isiah, with the vision and passing ability of Magic, with hops of Shawn Kemp, in the body of Karl Malone. I always find it funny when people assume that LeBron would be too “soft” for the ‘90’s NBA. If anything, he would have been even more dominant, as players of today are far more athletic, and in bigger bodies.

34

Very shrewd observation that is often over-looked. You couldn’t play zone defense on MJ, like you can on LeBron. You had to either double-team him, which freed up a man, or play man defense (which no 90’s defender could do successfully). This was partially offset by more lax hand-checking rules, but MJ was too good to let hand checks stop him from at least getting fouled.

35

I have tofurther point out that James’s performance in the 2016 Finals absolutely was one of the greatest, and maybe THE greatest, Finals performance ever. Cleveland was down 3-1 and you could’ve gotten fifty to one odds if you bet on them at that point; they were as dead as dogshit.

In Game 5, LeBron scored 41, took down sixteen boards, and had seven assists. All game highs.

In Game 6, he dropped 41 more with eleven assists. Game highs.

Game 7? Oh, just a triple double for LeBron, and Cleveland pulls off the comeback. By the way, they were losing by 7 at the half. James with a huge block with two minutes left, too.

Name anyone who’s ever dragged his team back in a comeback like that. Anyone. Oh, you can’t, because that’s the only comeback from 3-1 in Finals history.

LeBron is a winner. Big time.

36

On the flip side, Jordan never lost 3 games in a finals.

Agreed that 3-5 is better than 3-0 though and it’s not even an opinion, that’s fact. Unless, perhaps the latter player retired early after the third, then you could argue that maybe they’d have made more finals…

I’m not sure how much I like the “Lebron dragged his teams to the finals” argument. Jordan took 7 years to win a championship, Lebron took 9 (both were 28). Both only won championships with multiple other allstars on the team. Lebron made 2 finals with bad teams, but were blown out both times (1-8 in those finals).

Seems pretty close anyway you slice it. 538 comes to a similar conclusion (LeBron Or MJ? RAPTOR Picks The Best NBA Players Of The Past 40 Years. | FiveThirtyEight) although some of their rankings make you question the methodology.

37

Basketball is a hard, hard game in which to measure individual value, and some of the new metrics offer shocking results.

538, for instance, offers up Chris Paul as the 4th most valuable player since 1977, more so than Magic or Bird. I am sure that will stun everyone, but Basketball Reference ranks Paul as the ninth greatest player who ever lived by VORP and seventeenth by Win Shares. I am 100% certain no one in this thread would have ranked Chris Paul that highly. Higher than Bill Russell, Magic, or Pippen.

But here’s the thing; why not? Historically, NBA players have generally been ranked in our heads by the following criteria:

  1. How many points they score
  2. How their teams do in the playoffs
  3. How many assists or rebounds they get

Paul mostly does well in assists. But isn’t it possible we just didn’t know? Defense is incredibly hard to measure; you can measure blocks and rebounds but it’s hard to measure how a guy affects opponent shot selection, clock usage, and accuracy. The problem with going by things like just how many points and boards you get should be obvious; a guy (thinking of you, Allen Iverson) can roll up 26 points a game but if he’s taking 36 shots to do it he’s not really helping his team win. Today people are trying to figure this stuff out, and OF COURSE it’s going to make us re-evaluate how we see players’ real value.

38

Certainly I’m not saying you should ignore analytics results that seem odd at first glance. Those are actually the coolest results. If all they did was 100% map to common perception then it wouldn’t be interesting at all.

On the other hand, you shouldn’t accept anything just because a smart person attached a number to it. I don’t know enough about the NBA, RAPTOR methodology, or basketball theory to find out for sure. It is possible that John Stockton is the 3rd best player since the NBA/ABA merger and it is possible that David Robinson was a better player than Shaq, but it’s also possible that the rankings are overlooking something or weighing things out of proportion to their true value.

39

Michael Jordan at his best - would he be the best NBA player in the league today? Probably, or at least a superstar with few equals.

Wayne Gretzky at his best - would he be the best NHL player in the league today? Definitely.

40

We are probably too early in the process to really know and I don’t understand enough about how they calculate Win Shares and VORP in basketball to say how confident I am in it.

Baseball has been doing this for decades and the analytical numbers still aren’t always right.

One thing I will say is I totally reject the “sure, he’s great now/was then, but would not be great then/today.” That is one hundred percent wrong. LeBron would dominate the late 80s and early 90s, and Jordan would dazzle today. Players of that level of skill, intelligence, and drive would not be defeated by different conditions; they would defeat the different conditions. I am equally convinced Babe Ruth would be the finest hitter in the game today, that Gretzky would win scoring titles year after year today, and Jim Brown would be a devastating offensive force today.