[side commentary]
That’s fine. But for me, it was nice when I went abroad and stopped getting “machine gun” gestures and “Al Capon-ay?” when I mentioned I was from Chicago and instead Chicago started being associated with Michael Jordan. I wasn’t a big basketball fan, but I did get to be at the conference semi-finals, conference finals, and NBA finals games at the United Center for the fifth and sixth championships (I was working there as a photographer and film developer for AFP/Agence-France Presse.) It was mind-blowing to me to see that kind of athleticism in action.
[/side commentary]
Really? Did you read the first page of this thread? And no numbers proved me wrong.
So Bill Russell was the greatest of all time, right?
Jordan is often referred to as the greatest player of the modern era (fyi: modern era supposedly started with Magic and Bird and the three point line back in the 79-80 season).
In my opinion Russell is the ONLY legit person you can put up against Jordan in the greatest of all time debate. Of course the argument then becomes modern era vs the previous era…but 11 is hard number to ignore.
I am starting to get entertained by your attempts to try get me to quantify that which cannot be quantified.
Counting Finals wins is quantifying things.
Come on man. This started as a fun little debate about absolutely nothing important and this is what you have chosen to turn it into? Disingenuous nitpicking of specific facts while completely ignoring the scope of the argument all in an effort to score a point?
Wow, dude, it’s okay. No need to get upset. But all of this IS quantifying; there’s no point denying that or pretending you aren’t quantifying your positions. You’ve used statistics and quantities over and over again. Kareem won six rings but he wasn’t “the man” for five of them? That’s a quantity. Jordan was 6-0 in the Finals, right? Quantities. That’s the nature of sports discussions. They’re always based, to a large extent, in numbers.
Pound for pound, Muggsy Bogues is the best NBA player of all time.
/thread
Oh good lord! Fine, let’s just pretend that I am upset and you are arguing in good faith despite the fact that you have routinely replied to my posts with disingenuous bullshit that doesn’t even begin to address the points I was making. Yup, that’s totally what happened.
You have been awarded 1 point for winning a disingenuous argument that has shit to do with the debate at hand.
All you have to do is look at how tenaciously they played defense back then as compared to now. They hand checked and took people to the floor who dared drive the lane. Look at the Bill Lambeer Pistons and Pat Riley Knicks whose philosophy was, “If we constantly foul him, they can’t call them all.” I believed it was referred to as, “The Jordan Rules”. Now, I could drive my car down the lane to the basket. It’s a joke.
Different eras have different playstyles. Yes, they could hand check then; they couldn’t play zone defense. (Well, sort of.) Three point play wasn’t as significant.
I personally don’t really buy the notion that all time great players couldn’t adjust to different playstyles. Maybe a very specific kind of role player could not adjust - a pure 3-point expert might have been out of luck prior to the 3-pointer - but the truly great players would adjust. Magic Johnson took very few three point shots (he played during the era it was a thing, but they didn’t use it much) but I am one hundred percent sure that if he played today he’d be putting up 10 attempts a game and hitting lots of them. The very greatest players ever would have learned and adapted and excelled in any era.
Incidentally, it should be noted there was more to “The Jordan Rules” than just batting him if he drove to the basket; it was an entire game strategy based around focusing specifically on Jordan in every respect. Teams still do that sort of thing today; star-focused defense is now such a commonly applied strategy it doesn’t even have a name. The Raptors employ this frequently and often to excellent effect, overfocusing on a star scorer on both ends of the court to harry and tire him and force the other opponents to handle the ball more.
The other neat thing about the Jordan Rules was that the Pistons would always try to force Michael to move to his left, his weaker side. That was smart and innovative; today pretty much every team applies this as a matter of course.
Even Celtics fans don’t argue Russell was the GOAT. I’ve seen “greatest winner” tossed around a lot, but few people seriously argue that Russell was the best player of all time.
Winning titles matters when the other factors are close. But it’s not the only measure or else we’d be talking about Steve Kerr and Robert Horry too.
When the facts prove you wrong, claim there are no facts. Brilliant idea, but it only serves to get any argument you put forth ignored from here on.
Clearly there is a disagreement on what constitutes a fact. Would be great if you could be specific. I think most people have figured out the Donald Trump tactic of repeating the same thing over again so that half the crowd believes it. Add some value to this thread, please.
For the life of this Laker fan I have never been able to understand why you guys don’t try to get more mileage out of Russell’s 11. If any Laker from any era had 11 rings we would throw an annual parade just to pat ourselves on the back. We would be so much more insufferable than we are now it wouldn’t be funny.
I can tell you that LakerNation still hates the fact that Boston:
- Kicked the shit out of West and Baylor throughout the 60s. Jerry West is still mad so we’re mad right along with him.
- Kicked the shit out of Kobe and Pau in 08. Yes we got revenge in 2010 but we never had a tie breaker to settle the matter once and for all
- Have 17 total championships while we only have 16
We would hate Bird too but him and Magic seem to be the best of friends so for some strange reason not only does he gets a pass but he gets a shit load of respect and admiration too.
Russell is just long ago, that’s all. He is prior to the memory of most basketball fans today, so he is an abstract concept to many.
The age of the average NBA fan is, depending on what source you believe, between early 40s and 50. Magic, Michael, Bird, Hakeem, LeBron, Shaq, Kobe, all exist within the living memory of those guys. Russell doesn’t.
This is a fairly common thing in sports; hell, even in baseball, which keeps its history alive and present more than any other sport.
I basically agree with this. The 1996-98 version of the Bulls in particular were a very versatile, very athletic group of interchangeable players. There’s a reason the 1996 team won 72 games. The Warriors explosiveness on offense from 2015-19 was influenced a lot by Kerr’s (a Jackson pupil) adapted use of the triangle offense. Jordan and Pippen, both of whom could run up and down the floor, would have fit right into the new era just fine. I do wonder how big men like Shaquille O’Neal would have factored, though, in this kind of wide-open game.
Dumars in particular was really, really good at attacking Jordan’s strengths. He couldn’t stop him, but he slowed him down. Jordan still made Jordanesque shots, but the percentage fell. When Jordan became better at distributing the ball and when he had other players who were comfortable stepping up and making plays, that’s when the Bulls turned the corner.
Shaq was damn quick. There are a lot of really really big guys walking around in the world, but you can’t just put a jersey on them and expect 28 points a game.
I mean, if nothing else, you have to admit today’s teams would have to make major adjustments to guard a man like that, because they couldn’t have as many guys attacking the perimeter. Shaq presents a defensive problem in any system.
Back in the 2000s I had a customer in the Detroit area. Joe Dumars was brought onto the board of directors; he was already in some business interests, so it wasn’t a full time gig. According to the guys running the company day-to-day, everyone figured Dumars was a little celebrity flair they’d brought in for PR purposes. They figured wrong. He showed up on a regular basis, and he had questions, and expected answers, and by everyone’s account was one of the smartest humans they’d ever met and helped the company get better.
No disagreement about Shaq’s ability on offense; I’m thinking more in terms of his defense and ability to defend against today’s offenses that run the floor and spread the ball. I tend to think he would have been gassed if he had to run the floor and play the minutes he played when he was with Phil Jackson’s Lakers.
You’re probably right on the money here.
I guess it’s hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that there is an entire generation of fans who never saw Jordan play much less Magic and Bird. The “new” guys are all they know. Hell, I would bet money that most fans under the age of 25 have never even seen a quality low post move pulled off in real time.
Thank god for YouTube I suppose.