# How has Baseballl changed in the last 50 years? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [May 22, 2025, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654 "2025-05-22T08:44:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2025, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/161 "2025-06-05T17:02:49Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > I just looked up Ted Williams (Number 9) stats and his career BA was only .344 and he only hit **321** homers. On-Base Percentage (OBP): .482 (highest all-time) and last to his over .400 in 1941. You’re underselling him: he hit _521_ homers. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2025, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/162 "2025-06-05T17:07:02Z")
You are correct, sir. And I can’t blame google: That was a typo (and it did seem lower than I thought) ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2025, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/163 "2025-06-05T19:07:25Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > Ha! The hidden ball trick, say a base runner on first (1B calls time and goes to chat with the pitcher and by sleight-of-hand balls the glove) and the pitcher even gets his signs and the first baseman (any base) tags the runner (presumably leading) out is still legal. > > I can kinda see what you mean, yet quite often even on “safe plays” the 2nd or 3rd baseman will sweep the base with his glove again. Usually futile - yet this is professional baseball. This won’t work. Once time is called the ball is dead and time can’t be in again until the ump calls for it or points at the pitcher, and the pitcher must be holding the ball at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2025, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/164 "2025-06-05T20:14:12Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The flip side to that is that pitchers who strike out many batters are a better bet to continue being effective than pitchers who do not strike out many batters. That has always been true but teams now REALLY select for that. So from a modern club perspective the old argument has been settled - ultimately, if they had a gun to their head, they would rather have a Roger Clemens than a Greg Maddux? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2025, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/165 "2025-06-05T21:02:58Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > I just looked up Ted Williams (Number 9) stats and his career BA was only .344 and he only hit 321 homers. On-Base Percentage (OBP): .482 (highest all-time) and last to his over .400 in 1941. He missed 3 seasons to military service in WW2 and 2 seasons to the Korean War. Those were prime years for productivity. His last three seasons were also subpar(by his standards) that affected his stats. (He was a Marine Corp. fighter pilot and flew 39 combat missions in the KW.) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2025, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/166 "2025-06-05T21:08:12Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > So from a modern club perspective the old argument has been settled - ultimately, if they had a gun to their head, they would rather have a Roger Clemens than a Greg Maddux? Did you know that after retiring, Maddux started a house painting service? It quickly failed because he would only paint the corners. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/167 "2025-06-06T00:25:27Z")
Williams missed closer to 5 years to military service. 3 for WW2 and 2 for Korea. He only played in 43 games in the 1952 and 1953 seasons. Had he not served, Williams would most likely finished his career with close to 700 home runs and 700 doubles. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2025, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/168 "2025-06-06T01:26:36Z")
He would likely also be the all time leader in RBI. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/169 "2025-06-07T15:09:50Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > So from a modern club perspective the old argument has been settled - ultimately, if they had a gun to their head, they would rather have a Roger Clemens than a Greg Maddux? Steroids aside, absolutely Clemens. Maddux was insanely great, but there is a strong argument to be made that Clemens is the greatest pitcher who ever lived. I got to watch Clemens pitch for the Jays for two years and I have never seen better pitching in my life. His 1997 season was awe-inspiring. You aren’t going to regret having Maddux though. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/170 "2025-06-07T21:00:43Z")
Yeah, let’s see: 355 wins and only 227 losses – a .610 winning percentage, His victory total is the eighth-best of all-time, and his innings pitched total of 5,008.1 ranks 13th. Also, as I recall a Met-killer. vs. Roided Roger who threw shards of a broken bat directly at Mike Piazza - during a World Series game - when he was halfway up the line to first base. I’ll have to think about this one. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/171 "2025-06-07T21:17:44Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > Yeah, let’s see: 355 wins and only 227 losses – a .610 winning percentage, His victory total is the eighth-best of all-time, and his innings pitched total of 5,008.1 ranks 13th. FWIW, assuming you’re referring to Maddux’s numbers: Clemens had essentially the same number of wins (354), an even better winning percentage (.658), and a not-dissimilar number of innings (4916). In the hypothetical, if I were a GM today, and looking at two free agent pitchers in their late 20s, if those pitchers had the stats and performance (including pitch speed and strikeouts) of Clemens and Maddux, and they were otherwise equivalent (injury history, off-field issues), I’d have to agree with @RickJay , and take the Clemens clone over the Maddux clone, because of the increased focus on strikeouts today. And, to be fair, it’s not that Maddux didn’t throw strikeouts (he was consistently a 170-200 K per year guy), but he obviously didn’t have an overpowering fastball, instead winning through crazy-good control and baseball intelligence. Of course, knowing the full story, we know that non-clone Clemens was a raging asshole and a steroid user, while non-clone Maddux was widely respected and liked. If I’m a GM, and I have the choice between signing Clemens himself and Maddux himself, knowing the full picture, I probably choose Maddux. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/172 "2025-06-07T21:17:46Z")
Drat trying to beat the edit window ETA: Maddux was 19-10 against the Mets. And you cannot rank Clemens “steroids aside”. How many Tour de Frances did Lance Armstrong win? ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/173 "2025-06-07T21:24:02Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > FWIW, assuming you’re referring to Maddux’s numbers: Clemens had essentially the same number of wins (354), an even better winning percentage (.658), and a not-dissimilar number of innings (4916). Of course I was firstly referring to Maddux. I dunno when Roger Clemens started taking steroids (like how you can measure the massive growth of Barry Bonds hat size from like 5 7/8 to like 8 3/8 (making those numbers up but that’s what HGH - human growth hormone does to an adult). He (Clemens) cheated. Barry Bonds Cheated. Sosa. Probably a bunch more yet their records, homers are as totally irrelevant to me as Lance Armstrong, whom for years I believed him when he said he was clean. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/174 "2025-06-07T21:37:00Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Steroids aside, absolutely Clemens. Maddux was insanely great, but there is a strong argument to be made that Clemens is the greatest pitcher who ever lived. > > I got to watch Clemens pitch for the Jays for two years and I have never seen better pitching in my life. His 1997 season was awe-inspiring. > > You aren’t going to regret having Maddux though. At the latter’s peak he _always_ knew where each pitch was going, within I’d say 2-4". I’ve never seen that level of control in anyone else (tho Pedro Martinez came close). Then we have his defense to consider-he was like a housecat snagging insects, would always explode off the mound to grab _anything_ which came near him; never seen that kind of defense from another pitcher either. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/175 "2025-06-07T21:39:40Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > How many Tour de Frances did Lance Armstrong win? - Seven. I am _not_ defending Armstrong. By the time he was stripped of his titles, so many of his competitors had been DQed for drug use that there was no one to move up the ranks so those positions were left empty. You could say he _was_ competing on a level playing field, just that the “level” was boosted. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/176 "2025-06-07T21:46:09Z")
In 1986 Clemens had perhaps his best year and was dominant against the Mets in the World Series. If it was before or after that year someone said, “Take this stuff and you’ll be even better!” I do not believe that gave him the pinpoint control you wrote of (which again Maddux and many of the other greats were known for). It may not have helped his career (as whatever Barry Bonds, McGuire and Sosa were taking did - at least stat-wise). It ruined his reputation and he may remain high on the stat boards yet also be the only one not elected into the HOF. To me, the mention of his name first brings back memories of him throwing shards of a bat at Mike Piazza who was halfway up the line. Piazza did stop (with a clear WTF expression) (he was thrown out as the ball did not go to Clemens) yet Piazza was not the kind of player who would have charged the mount and fought and I don’t know if a brawl has happened in a World Series yet that would have been a right and proper time for one. I mean, two players (likely, I guess Giradi was the catcher and would have been 3rd involved - then both sides) from New York Teams in the World Series brawling. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/177 "2025-06-07T21:52:58Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > In 1986 Clemens had perhaps his best year and was dominant against the Mets in the World Series. > > If it was before or after that year someone said, “Take this stuff and you’ll be even better!” We’ll probably never know for sure, but it seems like the answer is likely “after 1986,” and quite possibly significantly after then. Brian McNamee, Clemens’ trainer, testified that he injected Clemens with PEDs for the first time in 1998, when Clemens was already 35. What’s not known, of course, is whether Clemens had ever used them prior to that date, without McNamee’s assistance or knowledge. My hypothesis is that Clemens started using them in order to continue to pitch at a high level as he aged. He won Cy Young awards at ages 38 and 41, and posted a 7.8 bWAR at age 42, seeming to defy gravity and the aging process – but, of course, now, we know what he was using in order to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2025, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/178 "2025-06-07T22:36:51Z")
As my 25 year memory is not photogenic: - The ball went foul into the Yankees dugout - Piazza’s bat was shattered and pieces landed near Clemens, who as any sane pitcher would do, threw a shard at Piazza who was just running on a batted ball - Jorge Posada (not Girardi) was the catcher, and the catcher is always the first to protect his pitcher so would have been first to join Piazza had he charged the Mound - Both dugouts did clear, and Tim McCarver did mention that Clemens had previously hit Piazza in the head (I’m thinking in an inter-league game - cross-town rivals always play each-other plus whatever else) - No punches thrown, it looked like Clemens was patting himself and shouting something thus taking the blame for the very common throwing of bat shards at opposing players. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2025, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/179 "2025-06-08T03:59:32Z")
We don’t know if Maddux used steroids or HGH. Pitchers juiced to improve recovery time between appearances, so it wasn’t something you could judge exclusively by physique. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2025, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654/180 "2025-06-08T17:34:07Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > Piazza’s bat was shattered and pieces landed near Clemens, who as any sane pitcher would do, threw a shard at Piazza who was just running on a batted ball The failure to eject Clemens was a disgrace. Like it or not, the Yankees were the beneficiaries of a remarkable number of terrible calls during their 1990s-2000s playoff run. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-baseballl-changed-in-the-last-50-years/1018654.md?page=10)