# How has crushing Iraq changed Arabic world opinion of the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2003, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960 "2003-05-17T23:22:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/21 "2003-05-18T12:36:38Z")
I do not normally rely on Enlgish or French lang. but there are some. Istara can provide some of the Gulf sourcing however they are very expat oriented in general. other sources include: Business News: > **[Business & Financial - International News, Currencies & Economic...](https://menafn.com/)** > > Middle East business and financial news, free business and financial news, Stocks, Currencies, research and events [menareport.com](http://menareport.com) General overview news: > **[Al Bawaba | Middle East News & Arab Headlines From A Local Perspective](https://www.albawaba.com/)** > > Middle East News and Arab World Headlines from Al Bawaba - The full coverage including Political, Business, Sport and Entertainment News from local pers Enlgish. lang. for locals consump. largely: Jordan Times [jordantimes.com](http://jordantimes.com) The Daily Star (Lebanon) www.dailystar.com.lb/ Of notable interest is al-Hayat’s Enlgish lang. site [http://english.daralhayat.com/](http://english.daralhayat.com/) As far as I can tell since discovering this newly added feature, they translate select articles from the prior day’s Arabic edition. Frankly I usually read the hard copies as the online editions are a pain to read. For some reason Arabic fonts online are weeny. Bloody pain to read. As such, I have not rigorously compared the two to see if there is “selectivity” in translated articles, although so far it seems well done and fairly balanced. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/22 "2003-05-18T12:46:31Z")
There are plenty of Arab english-language newspapers online, try: > **[Gulf News: Latest UAE news, Dubai news, Business, travel news, Dubai Gold...](https://gulfnews.com/)** > **[Khaleej Times - Dubai News, UAE News, Gulf, News, Latest news, Arab news,...](https://www.khaleejtimes.com)** > > Khaleej Times provides complete UAE news and international news coverage and online utilities like Dubai Gold Price, Dubai Draft Rate, UAE Exchange Rate, and more. Or this page - [http://www.al-bab.com/media/nonarabic.htm](http://www.al-bab.com/media/nonarabic.htm) - for even more. All this said, during the war Arab speaking colleagues would often translate for me headlines and political cartoons from Arabic language newspapers. The sentiment in those newspaper is far, far stronger than in the English language ones. And **Brutus** - the issue here is not whether the Arab reaction is justified or appropriate, but what that reaction is. And at least in my experience, as someone who lives in a (fairly westernised) Arab country, working for an Arab news organisation with (often very westernised) Arab colleagues - **Coll’s** analysis is far more accurate than **Sam’s**. You can estimate for yourselves how more different still opinion will be in less western-exposed countries. I do not deny **Sam** may well have read and heard the opinions he cites in Arab newspapers, but I question whether those newspapers are expat Arab newspapers, and whether they really represent the mainstream Arab view, given so much evidence here to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/23 "2003-05-18T12:48:12Z")
Anyone with practical experience care to speculate on the extent to which low-level combatants (like the poor schmucks who were captured by the Iraqis) are held responsible by various sectors of Middle East society for the actions of the Bush administration? I know there’s a fair amount of recognition on this side that many Iraqis who were in the military weren’t exactly there by choice. I know we have a volunteer army, so the situation is different, but is there a conception that all Americans were out for blood in some sort of fanatical way, or is there any understanding that a lot of these poor schmos joined the Army for college tuition or whatever, thinking they’d never see combat? ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/24 "2003-05-18T12:49:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by torben \* > \*\*Well Collounsbury, thank you for the delightfully insipid, rambling, and almost embarrassingly biased posts in this thread. So far all you’ve proven is that you are a borderline Arab fanatic frothing at the mouth. \*\* Do you froth at the mouth much, **Coll**? I find toothpaste froths less here, due to the water. Even been to the region, **torben**? ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/25 "2003-05-18T13:00:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eva Luna \* > \*\*Anyone with practical experience care to speculate on the extent to which low-level combatants (like the poor schmucks who were captured by the Iraqis) are held responsible by various sectors of Middle East society for the actions of the Bush administration? I know there’s a fair amount of recognition on this side that many Iraqis who were in the military weren’t exactly there by choice. > > I know we have a volunteer army, so the situation is different, but is there a conception that all Americans were out for blood in some sort of fanatical way, or is there any understanding that a lot of these poor schmos joined the Army for college tuition or whatever, thinking they’d never see combat? \*\* I recall hearing from people, when they are not agitated, expressions of pity for the American soldiers sent to do other’s bidding, or things along those lines. I do not believe Am. force structure is widely understood or known. The usual presumption is that they are conscripts just like in Arab armies. Lack of information. Now Torben has a little rant accusing me of bias. Perhaps he will take the time to point out what specifically was “almost embarrassingly biased” and give rationales therefore. Or perhaps he just wants to hear happy, self confirming news? ---
**Author:** ![torben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5daacb/32.png) [@torben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torben)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/26 "2003-05-18T13:01:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by istara \* > \*\*Do you froth at the mouth much, **Coll**? I find toothpaste froths less here, due to the water. > > Even been to the region, **torben**? \*\* Nice smartass response (stands up and applauds)! Does it froth more over there when you’re an idiot? I wouldn’t know, the people I talked over there were actually intelligent. I spent a number of years studying in Israel and spent quite awhile in Saudi Arabia. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/27 "2003-05-18T14:34:35Z")
> [@](#): > > **"smartass" > “idiot” > "borderline Arab fanatic frothing at the mouth"** Read the board policy. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/28 "2003-05-18T15:19:11Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] Coll and Torben, both of you better calm down pretty damn quick. Take it to the Pit if you want to make personal snipes rather than debate. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/29 "2003-05-18T16:33:02Z")
> [@](#): > > This isn’t really correct. The Arab world thought Saddam would put up a MUCH bigger fight. Nobody thought that Iraq could put up much of a fight. This suggestion came solely from the White House and the Fox New Channel as an attempt to lower public expectations and thereby make the invasion look more “succesful” by contrast. > [@](#): > > Also, there was a perception among many Arabs that Americans were paper tigers. They could bomb you from the air, but if they were on the ground all you had to do is bloody their noses and they would run away. Their experience with Americans in Beirut and elsewhere fed into this stereotype. That made Americans not just hated, but subject of scorn and condescension. Arabs may still hate the U.S., but they have a lot more respect for American soldiers now. I doubt it. Our technology wins our battles for us not our soldiers. > [@](#): > > I disagree. Again, one of the results of this war was that it was a ‘wake-up’ call to Arabs. For decades other Arab countries looked the other way as Saddam brutalized his country. They made excuses for it, refused to believe it, etc. That also made it easier to depict Americans as the ‘evil ones’, and to cheer Saddam for standing up to them. > > Today, the Arab street is more introspective. I’ve been following the english-language Arab press, and I’m running across lots of articles along the lines of, “Why were we so blind?”, or “How come it took the Americans to come in here and clean up our back yard?” and, “It’s time we stopped blaming America for everything that’s wrong in the middle east, and started looking at our own failed policies.” > > Granted this type of introspection is still in the minority, but it was almost unheard of before. This does not amount to “respect” for Bush. He was not respected before the invasion and he is not respected now. He may be more feared because he has demonstrated a self-serving recklessness, a willingness to lie and trump up reasons for aggression and an arrogant disregard for the international community but that is hardly the same as respect. If anything he has made himself even more into the stereotype of a gun toting, stupid, Yosemite Sam, cartoon cowboy. In short, I don’t think that Arab opinions of the US have changed, they’ve only been reinforced. Now the US is not just an arrogant bully, but an arrogant bully with a president who is ccompletely unrestrained by reason, intellect or ethics. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/30 "2003-05-18T16:57:03Z")
…or even the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/31 "2003-05-18T17:04:12Z")
**Collounsbury:** Your entire response to me was simply a long ad-hominem attack. You didn’t refute a thing I had to say. Your response to each one of my points was, “You’re an idiot”. I’m done with this thread. I have no desire to put up with the likes of you. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/32 "2003-05-18T18:23:07Z")
Before I go, I’m not going to let your major straw-man stand. I said that Arabs were surprised at the speed of U.S. victory. I said that even Russian Generals were surprised. You responded with a bunch of insults of course, then added that no one expected the U.S. to lose. And you said that the Russian comments came from Gulf War I. In fact, you are refuting something I never said. I never said the Arab World thought the U.S. would lose. I said they were surprised by the speed of victory. They thought there would be a great conflagration, and Arab nationalism would cause the people of Iraq to rise up and fight. The people would rally around Saddam and fight with him, and he’d go down in a blast of glory after taking many Americans with him. Instead, the Americans cut through the Iraqis like butter, and Saddam ran like a jackrabbit. The people turned against him, the military fought only when it had to, and surrendered when it had the chance. THAT was the wakeup call, “Collounsbury my man”. As for the Russian Generals… [From the AP:](http://http://www.post-gazette.com/World/2003042120030421iraqrussiaworldxp8.asp) > [@](#): > > When the war began, Russian generals forecast a long and fierce battle and expected the United States to suffer massive casualties if it stormed Iraqi cities. Just a week before Baghdad fell, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov extolled the strength of the Iraqi army and said a U.S. victory was “far from certain.” > > “There were expectations of a new Vietnam,” said Yuri Fyodorov, a deputy director of the PIR-Center, an independent Russian think-tank. > > Russian generals and diplomats, who also predicted an all-out battle for Baghdad, drew on Russia’s own botched experience in the storming and virtual destruction of Grozny, the Chechen capital. > > “The U.S. victory in Iraq has become an unpleasant surprise for the Russian political and military elite,” said Yevgeny Volk, head of the Moscow office of the Heritage Foundation, the U.S. think tank. As for that English-language Arab Press I was talking about… From the [Arab News:](http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=25446) > [@](#): > > Arab Media’s Conduct During War Indicative of a Deeper Malaise > Dr. Abdulhamid Al-Ansary, Special to Arab News > > DOHA, 21 April 2003 — The Iraqi people brought down the statue of the tyrant who had oppressed them for 35 years. Millions saw the wretched end to one of the most loathsome and bloody regimes in modern history. With the fall of the regime and the statue, other things fell as well. The great analysts and strategic experts had exaggerated the bloody and oppressive regime and greatly overestimated its strengths. > > So now that the first breath of freedom has been seen, where are all the things the Arab media promised us before the war? Where are the decisive moments and the invading forces buried under Baghdad’s walls? Where are the inner-city war and the street-by-street battles? > … > For how long will we be cursed by attaching ourselves emotionally to defeated heroes? Why has it been written about us that we are a nation which does not learn from our defeats? And within one generation, there are other nations who have suffered defeat once and have risen from its ashes. > > The question is: Why did the Arab media consent to align itself with the Iraqi regime while at the same time pretending that it was with the people? > … > The musings of a simple Iraqi from a liberated area caught my attention. He said: “The Arabs left us and did not liberate us. Why are they attacking the coalition which wants to liberate us?” Why is this simple fact not realized by our men of culture, our intellectuals, our men of the media and our religious leaders, the men who call for participation in “jihad?” Also from [The Arab News:](http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=25319) > [@](#): > > It’s Not Too Late to Face Reality > Khaled Al-Maeena, Editor in Chief > > “We are all suffering from low-level depression,” a friend of mine said the other night. I didn’t have to ask him why. “Yes,” I said, “the events of the past month have been traumatic, and we are all anxious to see what the future has in store for us.” > > “God only knows,” another friend commented. > > “True,” my friend answered, “but God helps those who help themselves. What have the Arabs done to help themselves over the last 40 years?” > … > We must not let future generations down by bequeathing them a legacy of a society that is divided, a national debt that will break their backs, an educational system that churns out parrots and a society that wallows in self-pity and snivels in mortification at the first sign of a problem. > > The more a society lags behind, the more aware its intelligentsia should be of the qualitative leaps that have occurred elsewhere, because the gap between what is and what should be is widening by the day. But we have failed to realize this, and intellectuals and the media are shirking their responsibility to make us aware of that widening gulf. > > But it’s not too late to start. > > The Arabs need to face up to the challenges confronting them and to focus their attention on the development of human resources, science and technology and build their economies in a free, just and peaceful environment. > > This is the time to learn our lessons from the past. From the [Islamic Republic News Agency:](http://www.irna.com/en/tnews/030508200121.etn00.shtml) > [@](#): > > Reformist MPs call for restoring relations with US > > Tehran, May 7, IRNA – Some 154 members of the parliament on Wednesday called on the Foreign Ministry to adopt active diplomacy to restore relations with the United States as a “deterrent approach” to possible threats. > … > Comparing the popularity of the Islamic Republic of Iran with > the Iraqi 30-year-old dictatorship and Iran’s eight-year sacred > defense against the Iraqi-imposed war, the statement said that the Iraqi people did not defend their country against the coalition invasion because they no longer were willing that their national wealth being put at Saddam’s disposal. From [The Arab News (After the Saudi Bombings):](http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=26166) > [@](#): > > It’s about time we got our act together. The time of pretending that radicalism does not exist in Saudi Arabia is long past. The time for pretending that we are above errors and could not possibly commit terrorist attacks is no longer with us. It has got to stop. Change must come now. We as a nation cannot afford to leave it to its own slow pace. It’s either now or never. It also must cover all aspects of our life — the school, the mosque, the home, the street, the media. > > How can we tell the rest of the world that we are tolerant of other religions and faiths when some of us are not even tolerant of other schools of Islamic thought? > > How can we expect others to believe that a majority of us are a peace-loving people who denounce extremism and terrorism when some preachers continue to call for the destruction of Jews and Christians, blaming them for all the misery in the Islamic world? > > And the media? It seems that if the media are not flatly denying, they are following the see-no-evil, hear-no-evil, speak-no evil method. > > Just a few days ago, when a large terrorist plot was foiled in Riyadh and the terrorists’ hideout was raided, what we read the following day in the local media was the head of the Muslim World League denouncing the act, saying that Islam and terrorism are not linked. The sheikh said that killing innocent people was a crime in Islam. We already knew that. But we needed to hear more than that. > > We needed to hear three questions that are never asked. Like dust, they are swept under the carpet: Why are more and more Saudi young men being fed with radical ideas? Who are the people brainwashing them? How are they being radicalized? Not that I expect this to make any difference. In case some of you aren’t on to Collounsbury’s schtick yet, here’s how it works - if you agree with him, you’re clever and intuitive. You have good insights. You’ll get a nice pat on the head and a biscuit. Your sources don’t matter, your education doesn’t matter. Nothing matters, except that you agree with Collounsbury. On the other hand, if you disagree with him all your sources are garbage, you’re an idiot, and the only people who have a right to an opinion are those who live in the Middle East and speak Arabic fluently. Everyone else is a moron, and fair game for ad-hominem attacks, insults, and derision. And the mods still let it go on. Because, after all, Collounsbury’s opinions are so valuable, it’s worth allowing him to insult and bully the members of the Straight Dope Board. After all, it’s for our own good. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/33 "2003-05-18T18:40:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\* > I said that Arabs were surprised at the speed of U.S. victory. \*\* There was another [Arab news editorial](http://www.arabnews.com/Article.asp?ID=25610) that was an attempt at self introspection and confusion/humiliation at the speed of the Coalition win over Iraq. As the dust settles over Iraq and the cacophony of excited voices on our television screens dies down, the Arab world has begun to stir from the confusion into which the swift fall of Baghdad had thrown it, to take a good look at itself and take stock. The political repercussions, as ever in the Arab world, are not easy to ascertain, but the fallout for the media is all too evident. To put it bluntly: A great many journalists and media outlets have been left with egg on their face. From accepting the wild claims of Iraqi minister of information Mohammed Saeed Al-Sahaf, to wildly predicting a jihad among the Iraqi people, very little the Arab media speculated on had, when push came to shove, anything to do with reality. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/34 "2003-05-18T18:50:15Z")
> [@](#): > > And the mods still let it go on. Because, after all, Collounsbury’s opinions are so valuable, it’s worth allowing him to insult and bully the members of the Straight Dope Board. After all, it’s for our own good. Sam, I usually respect you even when I disagree with you, but this is bullshit. **Col** has not called anyone “idiot” on this thread. He pointed out that your _sources_ are bad. His implication is that quoting the expatriot and ivory tower Arabs that play to the U.S. interests or their own closed group does not provide any insight into the actual opinions and beliefs on the street. One can challenge his claims by pointing out that one’s sources are, indeed, representative of mainstream Arab or MENA opinion, of course. However, despite corroborating testimony from two other current inhabitants of the Middle East for **Col** ’s position, you are choosing, instead, to simply whine that he claims one is stupid for not agreeing with him. If you have evidence that the people you are quoting are, indeed, representative of the people they claim to speak for, then provide it. Hurling insults at **Col** does not make your case. (If I quote Richard Cohen and Zainab Bahrani opposing U.S. policy, have I established that those are the common views of Jewish-American or MENA-American people? Or have I simply found anti-administration columnists in the American press?) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/35 "2003-05-18T19:05:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*Sam, I usually respect you even when I disagree with you, but this is bullshit. **Col** has not called anyone “idiot” on this thread. \*\* > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Collounsbury_ > [B > > I’m glad, Sam, Middle East expert has seen fit to correct items. Let me correct the corrections. > > Sam knows this how? > > Sam’s … well I have no fucking idea what second rate sources Sam get’s his ideas on opinion here from. > > Besides Sam mixing two entirely different subjects > > Again Sam has some nice, even wonderful assertions on what Arabs think - as far as I can tell derived from what he thinks they think, given to my knowledge Sam knows jack about Arabs. > > Sam. You may not like it, you may disagree, but that’s the bloody image so don’t assert bullshite. > > Of course Sam disagrees. But on what basis are we disagreeing Sam? Your preconceptions? > > Oh, Sam is following the English lang. press. Good. I am sure with his depth of experience he has a context to know what the “street” is saying, > > Bull fucking shit, Sam. Try to restrict your comments to something you actually know something about. > > Whatever Sam. Try restricting your comments to something you know. > > Yes, indeed, Sam is seeing more of that. I’m impressed. > > More assertions from Sam, Arab World expert. > > Not from journos, despite Sam’s sly bullshite smear. > > Sam can come up with any analysis he wants off of the facts, however creating facts ad hoc doesn’t add much, now does it? There are enough bloody distortions flouting around without pretending American Neo Con wishful thinking is factual. > \*\* This is why i try to stay out of middle east discussions on SDMB now. Too much hero worship and assholishness ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/36 "2003-05-18T19:25:33Z")
Well, let’s see. This is from just one of Collounsbury’s valuable missives: > [@](#): > > I’m glad, Sam, Middle East expert has seen fit to correct items. Let me correct the corrections. > … > Sam’s … well I have no fucking idea what second rate sources Sam get’s his ideas on opinion here from. > … > Again Sam has some nice, even wonderful assertions on what Arabs think - as far as I can tell derived from what he thinks they think, given to my knowledge Sam knows jack about Arabs. > … > Oh, Sam is following the English lang. press. Good. I am sure with his depth of experience he has a context to know what the “street” is saying, rather than that group of intellectuals who have made a profession of speaking to themselves. > … > Bull fucking shit, Sam. Try to restrict your comments to something you actually know something about. > … > Whatever Sam. Try restricting your comments to something you know. > … > Yes, indeed, Sam is seeing more of that. I’m impressed. > … > More assertions from Sam, Arab World expert. > … > Not from journos, despite Sam’s sly bullshite smear. > … Oh, you’re right. I don’t know how I saw anything at all insulting in that message. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/37 "2003-05-18T19:26:38Z")
Wow. I just did the same thing Calculus did. I didn’t see his message before I posted. At least I’m glad to see that other people had the same perception I did. ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/38 "2003-05-18T19:30:30Z")
**Calculus** : _“This is why i try to stay out of middle east discussions on SDMB now. Too much hero worship and assholishness.”_ Personally, I stay out of most middle east discussions because I know far less than some others who are contributing to these discussions. **Collounsbury** gets caught up in the heat of debate and sometimes comes off as snide, arrogant, and obnoxious. For that matter **Sam** is not absent his own way of provoking the passions, examples of which I could pull out from this thread. I’ve had the personal experience of arguing with both of them, so I hope you won’t chalk me up as one more **Collounsbury** disciple: depending on the subject at hand our positions have often been vehemently at odds. As to implying that **tomndebb** worships **Collounsbury** as his hero, that’s just ridiculous. Although he is no more my buddy than **Collounsbury** is, **tomndebb** always thinks for himself, is very level-headed, and does not seem to worship anyone as far as I can tell. So if you’re trying to let **Collounsbury** know that you think he’s coming on too strong you’re going about it in the wrong way. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/39 "2003-05-18T19:44:36Z")
Sam, I never declared that **Col** was polite. You claimed that “On the other hand, if you disagree with him all your sources are garbage, you’re an idiot, . . .” If you have evidence that your sources are mainstream, then provide them. However, running off claiming that **Col** is being unnecessarily dismissive of your point of view is doing exactly what you attribute to him. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aeb1de/32.png) [@The\_Calculus\_of\_Logic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Calculus_of_Logic)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960/40 "2003-05-18T20:01:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mandelstam \* > \*\ ***Calculus** : _“This is why i try to stay out of middle east discussions on SDMB now. Too much hero worship and assholishness.”_ > > Personally, I stay out of most middle east discussions because I know far less than some others who are contributing to these discussions. > > **Collounsbury** gets caught up in the heat of debate and sometimes comes off as snide, arrogant, and obnoxious. For that matter **Sam** is not absent his own way of provoking the passions, examples of which I could pull out from this thread. I’ve had the personal experience of arguing with both of them, so I hope you won’t chalk me up as one more **Collounsbury** disciple: depending on the subject at hand our positions have often been vehemently at odds. > > As to implying that **tomndebb** worships **Collounsbury** as his hero, that’s just ridiculous. Although he is no more my buddy than **Collounsbury** is, **tomndebb** always thinks for himself, is very level-headed, and does not seem to worship anyone as far as I can tell. > > \*\* I don’t have a problem with Tomndebb, never have. i just fail to see how he/she could miss 13 insults calling Stone an idiot in one post by Collounsbury. Seems when Col is called out for being an ass people always come to his aid. Which isn’t a bad thing in and of itself, but to ignore 14 insults (13 in one post) in order to do it does say something about the nature of the relationship. As far as Col, the way i see it he is educated, but there are people with more education and more credibility agree with him and there are people with more education and more credibility that disagree with him. He is just a moderately credible/educated voice on mid east issues IMO, and a very obnoxious one at that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-crushing-iraq-changed-arabic-world-opinion-of-the-us/175960.md?page=3)