# How has Former President Trump pissed you off today? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 20, 2017, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640 "2017-01-20T17:21:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 264
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5266 "2018-11-25T20:25:30Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Actually I’d say what happened is that so-called conservatives like George W. Bush and his ilk refused to uphold the laws and the sovereignty of the U.S. by being lax on illegal immigration. They joined in an unholy marriage of convenience: the Reps got to supply their business donors with an unending stream of cheap illegal labor; the Dems got to play the race card and bet that every person entering via our southern border would eventually, through an amnesty, become a D vote. _hits “View post”_ Yep. Still a nutcase. _puts **magellan01** back on the list_ ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2018, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5267 "2018-11-25T23:42:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > First, I did offer cites. I agree they are not “proof” of anything, but they are evidence. If you think the evidence weak, that is fine. But it does not mean it does not exist. What, like the cite below that directs to articles in the NY Times that contain the word “caravan”? Where’s the smoking gun? Why didn’t you cite a specific article that offers proof the caravaners are criminals bent on destroying America? Are we supposed to do your work for you? The burden of proof is upon you. You made the claim and have failed to back it up. > [@magellan01](#): > > What is your point? Do you not think that the caravan members and George Soros cannot each have their own motivations? Answer: they can and do. Cold your really not figure that out on your own. Yes. How do you know what their true motivations are? Can you read their minds? Do you have cites to things they wrote, said, did in the past to indicate their intentions? You are automatically assuming they’re up to no good with no supporting evidence. You fail again. > [@magellan01](#): > > The logistics of doing so would be much, much more difficult. But perhaps that is being done, as well. And, again, you seem to grasp the difference between proof and evidence. Your typing skills don’t seem up to par, but it’s really you who doesn’t seem to grasp the difference. Words like “perhaps” (in red above, in case you missed it) do not mean definite proof. It’s just speculation. You somehow think that just because there’s a small chance it could be that way, that it’s definitely that way. Your logic fails. You fail again. > [@magellan01](#): > > The only point I can see in this is your claim about flimsy conspiracies. Newsflash: the caravan exists. It is real. [Here is more proof.](https://www.nytimes.com/search?query=caravan) See above. While you’re looking, show me where I said I don’t believe the caravan exists. You have failed to convince me your reasons are valid. Remember, the burden of proof is upon YOU. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5268 "2018-11-26T03:02:04Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > But that’s not at all an answer to the question I asked. Earlier, you stated > > By your logic, any dollar that Soros may have given to some organization that eventually trickled down to a group that is directly assisting the caravan members with food, water, or shelter is ‘trying to subvert the sovereignty of the U.S.’ > > So I’ll ask again, more specifically: If I make a donation to an organization that I know is aiding the people in the caravan, am I trying to subvert the sovereignty of the U.S.? I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. For someone who operates on the scale that Soros can, I’d say that is the case. Especially since he believes in open borders around the world. I do think that a person can want to help SOME of the caravan members and not be working to subvert the sovereignty of the U.S. I highlight “some” because if one just wants to help those seeking asylum, I don’t think that action in and of itself qualifies. But if one is advocating helping the caravan—asylum seekers and non-asylum seekers alike—then I think they are advocating for subverting the sovereignty of the U.S. Question for you: do you think that someone working to help illegals—who are NOT seeking asylum—is working to subvert the sovereignty of the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5269 "2018-11-26T03:04:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. For someone who operates on the scale that Soros can, I’d say that is the case. Especially since he believes in open borders around the world. I do think that a person can want to help SOME of the caravan members and not be working to subvert the sovereignty of the U.S. I highlight “some” because if one just wants to help those seeking asylum, I don’t think that action in and of itself qualifies. But if one is advocating helping the caravan—asylum seekers and non-asylum seekers alike—then I think they are advocating for subverting the sovereignty of the U.S. > > Question for you: do you think that someone working to help illegals—who are NOT seeking asylum—is working to subvert the sovereignty of the U.S.? That just sounds absolutely nuts to me. Feeding and providing necessities to people (even people not seeking asylum) isn’t “working to subvert the sovereignty” of anyone or anything. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5270 "2018-11-26T03:16:57Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > What, like the cite below that directs to articles in the NY Times that contain the word “caravan”? Where’s the smoking gun? Why didn’t you cite a specific article that offers proof the caravaners are criminals bent on destroying America? Are we supposed to do your work for you? The burden of proof is upon you. You made the claim and have failed to back it up. I didn’t cite a specific article because the sole point I was trying to provide evidence for was the existence of the caravan. > [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > How do you know what their true motivations are? Can you read their minds? Do you have cites to things they wrote, said, did in the past to indicate their intentions? You are automatically assuming they’re up to no good with no supporting evidence. You fail again. This is not true. I’m willing to assume the best motivations for the vast majority of those in the caravan. Soros believes in open borders, and not only in the U.S., so at least part of his motivation is clear. I’m perfectly willing to accept that he ALSO would like to simple help asylum seekers. > [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Your typing skills don’t seem up to par, but it’s really you who doesn’t seem to grasp the difference. Words like “perhaps” (in red above, in case you missed it) do not mean definite proof. It’s just speculation. You somehow think that just because there’s a small chance it could be that way, that it’s definitely that way. Your logic fails. You fail again. No. You need to reread the exchange. You claimed there was “no evidence”. Also, you’re ignoring the “as well” at the end of that sentence. > [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > See above. While you’re looking, show me where I said I don’t believe the caravan exists. You have failed to convince me your reasons are valid. Remember, the burden of proof is upon YOU. Maybe I’m confusing you with another poster. If so, my apologies and you can just ignore the point. As far as the rest, I really do not care if you are convinced or if you think my reasons are valid. I don’t expect to convince anyone on the se boards of anything that is not part of liberal doctrine. But if you don’t think the NYT link (which I intentionally chose) that has four headlines talking about the caravan is not proof, or at least VERY strong evidence, that the caravan exists, I’m not sure anything would convince you. Shrug. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5271 "2018-11-26T03:19:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That just sounds absolutely nuts to me. Feeding and providing necessities to people (even people not seeking asylum) isn’t “working to subvert the sovereignty” of anyone or anything. If it’s just feeding and providing necessities, I’d agree with you. If it’s that and helping them enter the U.S. illegally, then I stand by it. But to be clear, I’m referring to helping those NOT seeking asylum. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5272 "2018-11-26T03:22:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Soros believes in open borders Provide evidence for this assertion. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5273 "2018-11-26T03:36:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. For someone who operates on the scale that Soros can, I’d say that is the case. Especially since he believes in open borders around the world. I do think that a person can want to help SOME of the caravan members and not be working to subvert the sovereignty of the U.S. I highlight “some” because if one just wants to help those seeking asylum, I don’t think that action in and of itself qualifies. But if one is advocating helping the caravan—asylum seekers and non-asylum seekers alike—then I think they are advocating for subverting the sovereignty of the U.S. > > Question for you: do you think that someone working to help illegals—who are NOT seeking asylum—is working to subvert the sovereignty of the U.S.? Of course not. If I buy a meal for a hungry person who is here illegally, in no way does that act try to subvert the sovereignty of the U.S. So if I send a donation to the group that’s feeding the people in the caravan, I should stipulate that it can only be used to help asylum seekers? If I don’t, and some of my money is used to feed non-asylum seekers, then I’m advocating to subvert the sovereignty of the U.S.? Right. I guess if you want to think that Soros money is funding undesirable aspects of the caravan, and he has some ulterior motive for doing so, have at it. I’m sure there are others that agree with you. I’m not one of those. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5274 "2018-11-26T04:11:11Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > So if I send a donation to the group that’s feeding the people in the caravan, I should stipulate that it can only be used to help asylum seekers? If I don’t, and some of my money is used to feed non-asylum seekers, then I’m advocating to subvert the sovereignty of the U.S.? Right. By his logic, any court case that claims that a law is improper would be subverting the sovereignty of the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5275 "2018-11-26T04:11:24Z")
[Meanwhile, the efforts to build good will towards other countries continues:](https://nypost.com/2018/11/24/white-house-turns-away-foreign-students-on-tour-with-class/amp/) White House turns away foreign students on tour with class > [@](#): > > After making it through an initial checkpoint, Secret Service agents stopped three Henry Hudson students who didn’t have their passports or other identification required for non-US citizens. > > “They are here on visas, but they didn’t bring any of that stuff,” a dad said. “They didn’t have any ID on them.” > > The White House “boarding pass,” similar to an airline boarding pass, is sent to visitors in advance, officials said. Among other rules, it states that “all foreign nationals … regardless of age” must present a passport, alien registration card, or US State Department-issued ID. > > Henry Hudson administrators apparently did not verify that all students had the right ID before hitting the road, parents told The Post. > > When the Secret Service denied entry to the three kids, Principal Lenore Kingsmore stayed outside with them, said school board member Karen Horner. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5276 "2018-11-26T05:59:34Z")
Do US citizens of nationals have to provide some sort of ID which is only provided to US citizens or nationals, such as a passport? I can think of several ways the policies involved would be punted moon-high in Spain, but you guys have different notions about both ID and discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5277 "2018-11-26T06:11:13Z")
Tear gas is banned by international law. The US just committed a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5278 "2018-11-26T07:49:02Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Tear gas is banned by international law. The US just committed a war crime. What law is that? I’ve used tear gas against people. I’m pretty sure I wasn’t committing a war crime. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5279 "2018-11-26T08:07:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What law is that? > > I’ve used tear gas against people. I’m pretty sure I wasn’t committing a war crime. Article I (5) of the convention: “Each State Party undertakes not to use riot control agents as a method of warfare.” Article II (9) (d) of the convention: “Law enforcement including domestic riot control purposes …[is]… not prohibited under this convention.” ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5280 "2018-11-26T09:42:55Z")
I don’t believe the use of tear gas is necessarily a war crime, but Trump is definitely trying to manufacture a crisis out of this, and he will almost surely escalate the situation. What an escalation looks like is anyone’s guess, but we’ll know soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5281 "2018-11-26T12:21:45Z")
That’s just a goddamned joke. Using tear gas for domestic law enforcement doesn’t fall under the Law of War. Duh. Moron. If they want to come in, they are allowed to ask nicely. If they want to climb the fence en masse, they deserve what they get. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5282 "2018-11-26T12:38:09Z")
I have a bad feeling one of these migrants is going to do something stupid and get themselves (and unfortunately others around them) shot. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5283 "2018-11-26T12:44:10Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5284 "2018-11-26T14:16:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I didn’t cite a specific article because the sole point I was trying to provide evidence for was the existence of the caravan. Let me explain something about the scientific method. You must not consider bias as fact. You only record the characteristics you observe. You make no definite assumptions about the characteristics. You _theorize_ the most likely reasons and support with the facts you’ve compiled. You develop your case through more years of study, conduct experiments, send reports to peers to review for inaccuracies, and gather more evidence to support your theory. The only thing you’ve done is show evidence that there is a caravan. You think it’s an established fact that Soros is funding the caravan, based on his preference to open borders. Have you ever once considered the reason Soros likes open borders is because he makes money dealing with foreign clients? How do you go from “prefers open borders” to “wants to bring down the US”? You’re absolutely sure that’s a fact but you’ve done nothing to support it. It’s not a liberal vs conservative pissing contest. It’s reasoning vs emotion, and you’re purely on the side of emotion. > [@magellan01](#): > > This is not true. I’m willing to assume the best motivations for the vast majority of those in the caravan. Soros believes in open borders, and not only in the U.S., so at least part of his motivation is clear. I’m perfectly willing to accept that he ALSO would like to simple help asylum seekers. You’ve not said as much before. We had no reason to believe you’re supportive of anything Soros does, and still can’t understand why you think he funds the goddamned caravan. WHERE DOES THE FUCKING MONEY GO? They’re so desperate to leave the hellish nightmare of their own countries they’ll risk getting gassed, shot and maimed by jumping the border. Do you think criminals who want to being down the US are going to risk that much bodily harm to themselves to enter? The 9/11 terrorists sure as hell didn’t go through that. > [@magellan01](#): > > No. You need to reread the exchange. You claimed there was “no evidence”. Also, you’re ignoring the “as well” at the end of that sentence. “As well”??? You seriously think “as well” settles the score? “As well” means “there’s other stuff I think is out there that might be true and support my argument. I can’t find it, but it’s out there somewhere.” Sorry, the atom bomb didn’t get built out of “as well”. Diseases don’t get cured by “as well”. Your computer doesn’t operate on “as well”. > [@magellan01](#): > > Maybe I’m confusing you with another poster. If so, my apologies and you can just ignore the point. As far as the rest, I really do not care if you are convinced or if you think my reasons are valid. I don’t expect to convince anyone on the se boards of anything that is not part of liberal doctrine. But if you don’t think the NYT link (which I intentionally chose) that has four headlines talking about the caravan is not proof, or at least VERY strong evidence, that the caravan exists, I’m not sure anything would convince you. Shrug. This has absolutely fuck-all to do with liberal doctrine. I’m speaking as a former Republican who’s extremely disappointed with the simpering, fact-averse, finger-pointing conspiracy fantasists who don’t have the backbone to stand up to this ignorant man baby of a president because they’re afraid to lose power in Washington. You think the way to prove you’re right is not to listen to anybody more educated on the subject than you. That’s willful ignorance that will do you no good, limits your knowledge, prevents you from reaching your potential, and thanks to a leader of the same mindset, will ultimately destroy this country. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640/5285 "2018-11-26T15:45:27Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Let me explain something about the scientific method. You must not consider bias as fact. You only record the characteristics you observe. You make no definite assumptions about the characteristics. You _theorize_ the most likely reasons and support with the facts you’ve compiled. You develop your case through more years of study, conduct experiments, send reports to peers to review for inaccuracies, and gather more evidence to support your theory. > > The only thing you’ve done is show evidence that there is a caravan. You think it’s an established fact that Soros is funding the caravan, based on his preference to open borders. Have you ever once considered the reason Soros likes open borders is because he makes money dealing with foreign clients? How do you go from “prefers open borders” to “wants to bring down the US”? You’re absolutely sure that’s a fact but you’ve done nothing to support it. It’s not a liberal vs conservative pissing contest. It’s reasoning vs emotion, and you’re purely on the side of emotion. > You’ve not said as much before. We had no reason to believe you’re supportive of anything Soros does, and still can’t understand why you think he funds the goddamned caravan. WHERE DOES THE FUCKING MONEY GO? They’re so desperate to leave the hellish nightmare of their own countries they’ll risk getting gassed, shot and maimed by jumping the border. Do you think criminals who want to being down the US are going to risk that much bodily harm to themselves to enter? The 9/11 terrorists sure as hell didn’t go through that. > > “As well”??? You seriously think “as well” settles the score? “As well” means “there’s other stuff I think is out there that might be true and support my argument. I can’t find it, but it’s out there somewhere.” Sorry, the atom bomb didn’t get built out of “as well”. Diseases don’t get cured by “as well”. Your computer doesn’t operate on “as well”. > > This has absolutely fuck-all to do with liberal doctrine. I’m speaking as a former Republican who’s extremely disappointed with the simpering, fact-averse, finger-pointing conspiracy fantasists who don’t have the backbone to stand up to this ignorant man baby of a president because they’re afraid to lose power in Washington. You think the way to prove you’re right is not to listen to anybody more educated on the subject than you. That’s willful ignorance that will do you no good, limits your knowledge, prevents you from reaching your potential, and thanks to a leader of the same mindset, will ultimately destroy this country. For the love of all that’s holy, is this dialogue going anywhere?? I didn’t think so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640.md?page=263) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-former-president-trump-pissed-you-off-today/777640.md?page=265)