# How has legal abortion harmed society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359 "2009-06-01T14:52:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/1 "2009-06-01T14:52:00Z")
With all the brouhaha over Dr. Tiller’s death and the subject in general, other than totally dividing the country (and making abortion illegal again is not going to solve that problem, nosiree) how has it harmed society? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/2 "2009-06-01T15:12:12Z")
The guys over at [Freakonomics](http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/) make a plausible case that the legalization of abortion has been good for society in that it has caused a [decrease in the crime rate](http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfLegalized2001.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/3 "2009-06-01T15:14:38Z")
Well in western nations with high rates of abortion people are breeding far below replacement rate. In Russia where the incidence of abortion is astronomically high, they are due for a demographic collapse very shortly. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/4 "2009-06-01T15:23:54Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well in western nations with high rates of abortion people are breeding far below replacement rate. In Russia where the incidence of abortion is astronomically high, they are due for a demographic collapse very shortly. Well first you would need to show that this rate would drop if abortion was illegal, because the OP asks about legal abortion… but that is really a nitpick. More importantly, to link the demographic collapse with abortion you would need to show that absent available abortion, the birth rate would rise. I think this is highly unlikely, as there are other forms of birth control that would replace it. People aren’t chosing not to have children because of abortion, they are using abortion because they have chosen not to have children. Even without access to abortion, I doubt you would see any significant rise in the Russian birth rate. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/5 "2009-06-01T15:32:02Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well in western nations with high rates of abortion people are breeding far below replacement rate. In Russia where the incidence of abortion is astronomically high, they are due for a demographic collapse very shortly. Russia may have issues but the US is fine. > [@](#): > > More babies were born in the United States in 2007 than in any other year in American history, according to preliminary data reported Wednesday by the National Center for Health Statistics. > > SOURCE: [’07 U.S. Births Break Baby Boom Record](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/health/19birth.html?ref=us) Published: March 18, 2009 ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/6 "2009-06-01T15:48:28Z")
Women who have abortins do give birth to babies later. BAbies that might not have been born if they had other children earlier. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/7 "2009-06-01T15:54:42Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Women who have abortins do give birth to babies later. BAbies that might not have been born if they had other children earlier. Do you have any actual stats for that? How do you know this? Don’t get me wrong, I am vehemently pro-choice, but your whole premise in the OP is a laughable straw man. People who are pro-life are not so because they think that legal abortion harms society or at the very least they feel that it is a distant secondary issue. They are against it because they feel that it is taking a life and a form of murder. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/8 "2009-06-01T15:58:17Z")
I’ll put it another way, pro-lifers feel that abortion has harmed society because it is equivalent to society sanctioning the murder of babies who are yet to be born. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/9 "2009-06-01T15:58:47Z")
People of good will and open minds sometimes come to the conclusion that abortion (at least sometimes) kills someone. Of course people of good will and open minds also come to the opposite conclusion. If it is even possible that abortion kills someone, it stands to reason that we ought not to do it without much reflection. What if we don’t? That would coarsen society; it would make one class of people expendable to the will of another. It would void the promise of society’s equal protection of all. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/10 "2009-06-01T16:24:06Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > What if we don’t? That would coarsen society; it would make one class of people expendable to the will of another. It would void the promise of society’s equal protection of all. Well, abortions have been occurring nearly throughout recorded history. So, either society has already been coarsened or this coarsening has not occurred. I’d argue that forcing women to carry to term against their will coarsens society and voids the promise of equal protection for all. > [@](#): > > The first recorded evidence of induced abortion, is from the Egyptian Ebers Papyrus in 1550 BC.[3] A Chinese record documents the number of royal concubines who had abortions in China between the years 500 and 515 BC.[4] According to Chinese folklore, the legendary Emperor Shennong prescribed the use of mercury to induce abortions nearly 5000 years ago.[5] > > SOURCE: [History of abortion - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/11 "2009-06-01T16:29:55Z")
You may have a point. So might I. That being the case, I would suppose cautious reflection is called for. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/12 "2009-06-01T16:45:37Z")
Loosening of moral standards. At least for those of us that think that babies are also humans. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/13 "2009-06-01T16:48:32Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > If it is even possible that abortion kills someone, it stands to reason that we ought not to do it without much reflection. Anti-abortion camps claim that godless, amoral sinners who choose to have an abortion and cancel out god’s work do so without the slightest bit of reflection. This is incorrect. What is correct is that godless, amoral sinners who have abortions do have abortions without the slightest bit of religious reflection. This pisses these anti-abortion people off something fierce. (clearly this is not intended to demonstrate the attitudes of every person against abortion - merely the aggressively anti-abortion groups) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/14 "2009-06-01T17:05:58Z")
While i appreciate the attempt to put words in other people’s mouths, it seems an argument of the weak. Rather than discuss the points raised, you choose to argue against points you yourself made. That does not seem to move the discussion forward. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/15 "2009-06-01T17:09:58Z")
Anyone who thinks that anti-abortion people do not have abortions is just plain wrong. [The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion](http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html). On the other hand, nobody could be more pro-choice than Whoopi Goldberg, and when her 15 year old daughter got pregnant and decided to give birth, she supported her all the way because “pro-choice can mean continuing the pregnancy.” ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/16 "2009-06-01T17:13:45Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > I’ll put it another way, pro-lifers feel that abortion has harmed society because it is equivalent to society sanctioning the murder of babies who are yet to be born. This. Abortion is murder (according to pro-lifers), so asking how abortion is harmful to society is sort of a no-brainer. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/17 "2009-06-01T17:15:57Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Anyone who thinks that anti-abortion people do not have abortions is just plain wrong. Is that an issue of debate here? (I have to go to bed. I will be back in (my) morning.) ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/18 "2009-06-01T17:16:57Z")
> [@Estilicon](#): > > Loosening of moral standards. At least for those of us that think that babies are also humans. You mean for those of you who feel fetuses and embryos are babies. Everybody pretty much feels babies are humans, and misrepresenting the issue does you no favors. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/19 "2009-06-01T17:19:07Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well first you would need to show that this rate would drop if abortion was illegal, because the OP asks about legal abortion… but that is really a nitpick. > > More importantly, to link the demographic collapse with abortion you would need to show that absent available abortion, the birth rate would rise. I think this is highly unlikely, as there are other forms of birth control that would replace it. People aren’t chosing not to have children because of abortion, they are using abortion because they have chosen not to have children. Even without access to abortion, I doubt you would see any significant rise in the Russian birth rate. Well I’ve seen statistics that show the timeline being fairly coincidental between the rise in the incidence of birth control and legalized abortion. I’ll see what I can come up with. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/20 "2009-06-01T17:20:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Russia may have issues but the US is fine. Yeah, that’s the year my daughter was born. 😉 But at the same time for some reason the US is an anomaly in the downward demographic trend of wealthy industrialized nations. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359.md?page=2)