# How has legal abortion harmed society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359 "2009-06-01T14:52:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/21 "2009-06-01T17:20:19Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Anyone who thinks that anti-abortion people do not have abortions is just plain wrong. > > [The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion](http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html). > > On the other hand, nobody could be more pro-choice than Whoopi Goldberg, and when her 15 year old daughter got pregnant and decided to give birth, she supported her all the way because “pro-choice can mean continuing the pregnancy.” Some of those stories are sad – a lot of them seem to be teenagers, being pressured into either abortions by their parents, or else being forced to continue picketing. Or they’re just so confused, and seem to feel, “I HAVE to do this.” Gah. How has it harmed society? I’d say by all this stupid bickering when we could be educating teenagers about proper birth control – if you want to reduce the number of abortions, promote condom use. (But I doubt we’ll see that happening any time soon) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/22 "2009-06-01T17:21:14Z")
Oops. Answered in subsequent post ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/23 "2009-06-01T17:33:34Z")
I am doing research. Here is the wiki article on abortion in Russia. > **[Abortion in Russia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Russia)** > > Abortion in Russia is legal as an elective procedure up to the 12th week of pregnancy, and in special circumstances at later stages. > Following the takeover of Russia by the Bolsheviks, in 1920 the Russian Soviet Republic under Lenin became the first country in the world in the modern era to allow abortion in all circumstances, but over the course of the 20th century, the legality of abortion changed more than once, with a ban on unconditional abortions being enacted again from 1936 to 1955, whic... A quick search by birth rate has yielded nothing. If someone can come up with historical birth rate statistics for Russia that would be cool. Otherwise I’ll see what I can do later. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/24 "2009-06-01T17:42:35Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yeah, that’s the year my daughter was born. 😉 But at the same time for some reason the US is an anomaly in the downward demographic trend of wealthy industrialized nations. Maybe but since abortion is available in the US (for free even) it argues against the notion that it is legally available abortion that is at the root of this issue. If it was then why wouldn’t the US be in the same boat? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/25 "2009-06-01T17:44:14Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Maybe but since abortion is available in the US (for free even) it argues against the notion that it is legally available abortion that is at the root of this issue. If it was then why wouldn’t the US be in the same boat? Well 2007 was a blip for one thing. The birth rate has gone down significantly in America, and particularly so amongst non-immigrant populations. So a baby boom in one year does not a demographic trend make. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/26 "2009-06-01T17:46:26Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I am doing research. Here is the wiki article on abortion in Russia. > > [Abortion in Russia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Russia) > > A quick search by birth rate has yielded nothing. If someone can come up with historical birth rate statistics for Russia that would be cool. Otherwise I’ll see what I can do later. I’m not sure what you are looking for here. I was trying to say that your view of the harm of abortion isn’t really a harm of abortion, it is a harm of birth control. In other words, if these Russian women suddenly could not get abortions legally, I don’t think, in the long term, the birth rate would rise because other forms of birht control would become more widespread to replace abortion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/27 "2009-06-01T17:48:47Z")
Legal abortion has arguably harmed society in creating a painfully intractable point of political and cultural division with zealots on both sides. But, that might still exist if _Roe v. Wade_ had gone the other way. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/28 "2009-06-01T18:09:02Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well 2007 was a blip for one thing. The birth rate has gone down significantly in America, and particularly so amongst non-immigrant populations. So a baby boom in one year does not a demographic trend make. Not so. Follow my link to the [New York Times article](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/health/19birth.html?ref=us) and click on the “Upward Trends” graphic in the article (I cannot link to the graphic directly). Since 1980 (as far as that graphic details) the birth rate in the US as trended almost exclusively upwards and is at an all-time high. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/29 "2009-06-01T18:13:14Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Not so. > > Follow my link to the [New York Times article](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/health/19birth.html?ref=us) and click on the “Upward Trends” graphic in the article (I cannot link to the graphic directly). > > Since 1980 (as far as that graphic details) the birth rate in the US as trended almost exclusively upwards and is at an all-time high. Missed the edit: Whoops! My bad…:smack: That graphic details birth to unmarried women only as on the rise. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/30 "2009-06-01T18:17:52Z")
Ok…sorry for multi-posting. I should’ve done all this legwork initially. Anyway, looks like from a low around 1976 the number of children per woman has been trending up ever since (albeit slowly). ([cite](http://prbblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/us-fertility-rate.gif)) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/31 "2009-06-01T18:20:02Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > How has it harmed society? I’d say by all this stupid bickering when we could be educating teenagers about proper birth control – if you want to reduce the number of abortions, promote condom use. (But I doubt we’ll see that happening any time soon) Especially since a lot of people who oppose abortion also hate birth control. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/32 "2009-06-01T18:25:39Z")
I’d also like to note that Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973. Looking at the chart I linked in post #30 the birth rate was already plummeting and indeed only barely slid a little bit more till 1976. After that birth rates trended upwards. So again, looks to me like abortion has had no impact on the overall birth rate (in the US at least). ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/33 "2009-06-01T18:29:21Z")
> [@Estilicon](#): > > Loosening of moral standards. At least for those of us that think that babies are also humans. I don’t know how you can connect loose moral standards to having a legal medical procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/34 "2009-06-01T18:43:25Z")
I must admit, I am kinda stumped by the OP because the answer should be blatantly obvious, gross strawmen notwithstanding. Is this some kind of “what color is George Washington’s white horse?” trick questions? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/35 "2009-06-01T19:17:08Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Not so. > > Follow my link to the [New York Times article](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/19/health/19birth.html?ref=us) and click on the “Upward Trends” graphic in the article (I cannot link to the graphic directly). > > Since 1980 (as far as that graphic details) the birth rate in the US as trended almost exclusively upwards and is at an all-time high. I guess that reflects the boomers and children of boomers having kids then. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/36 "2009-06-01T19:20:36Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Ok…sorry for multi-posting. I should’ve done all this legwork initially. > > Anyway, looks like from a low around 1976 the number of children per woman has been trending up ever since (albeit slowly). ([cite](http://prbblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/us-fertility-rate.gif)) > **[Abortion in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States)** > > In the United States, abortion is a divisive issue in politics and culture wars. Prior to the mid-19th century, English common law formed the basis of abortion law in the colonies and the early Republic. > Connecticut was the first state to regulate abortion in 1821; it outlawed abortion after quickening, the moment in pregnancy when the pregnant woman starts to feel the fetus's movement in the uterus, and forbade the use of poisons to induce one post-quickening. Many states subsequently pass... Based on your graph it looks like the TFR plummeted between 62 and 75. Roe was in 73 and wide-spread birthcontrol became available what in the early 60s? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/37 "2009-06-01T19:54:16Z")
This is one of the silliest “debates” I’ve seen in this forum. The OP doesn’t offer any position one way or the other. A couple of posters suggest legalized abortion provides a focal point for disagreement, but acknowledge that illegal abortion would result in the same disagreement. So all that is left suggesting any “harm” is a general, unexplained suggestion of “loosened moral standards.” Seems the answer is pretty clear - legalized abortion has not harmed society. Now if we wanted to discuss idiots gunning down doctors in churches… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/38 "2009-06-01T20:35:18Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > [Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States) > > Based on your graph it looks like the TFR plummeted between 62 and 75. Roe was in 73 and wide-spread birthcontrol became available what in the early 60s? Yep…early 60’s although that is just for the oral contraceptive. Other contraceptive methods have existed long before that albeit not as effective or simple. I doubt oral contraception was the issue here though. First I would presume it’d take time for oral contraception to become mainstream. Second, I think the dip was precipitated more by the baby boom bubble. From 1945 - 1960(ish) we had the post-war spike in births (the baby boom). Once those families were settled with all the kids they wanted there was a predictable dip. By 1960 the parents who generated the baby bubble were done. Their kids were, at most, 15 or so and not likely to have kids for another 10 years or so. Add in women’s lib which was picking up steam and more young women attending college than in the past and there is your dip. Eventually those people wanted kids too so the slide flattened out. ---
**Author:** ![palindromemordnilap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/db5fbb/32.png) [@palindromemordnilap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/palindromemordnilap)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/39 "2009-06-01T21:04:55Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Well, abortions have been occurring nearly throughout recorded history. So, either society has already been coarsened or this coarsening has not occurred. You could use this line to argue in favor of slavery, or human sacrifice, or the total subjugation of women. We can probably agree that society is more refined (less coarse) in places where these practices are frowned on. As for abortion, pro-choice advocates generally take pains to say they are not in favor of abortion per se, but in favor of a woman’s right to choose. The message is that abortion is something we as a society should seek to minimize. Why is that? I think it’s because we all understand that on some level, abortion is the cessation of a human-in-the-making. Also in this thread is the inevitable debate over the use of the word “baby”. It’s probably appropriate to refer to an early-stage pregnancy subject as an “embryo”, a later-stage subject as a “fetus” and a subject that has reached viability as a “baby”. Many pro-choice advocates suggest that a fetus is not a baby until it emerges from the womb, and that it is therefore a woman’s guilt-free choice to cease the brain and heart functions of a subject that could be safely delivered. In fact, this practice is not substantially different from killing a baby in its crib. Anyone who sees these two acts as remarkably different is inexcusably wrong–in the same way that someone who thinks slavery, etc. is OK is inexcusably wrong. The fact that “only” a few thousand late-term abortions occur each year, and probably even fewer after viability, is not an argument in favor of continuing this barbaric practice. I am, by the way, wholly and unreservedly in favor of a woman’s right to choose abortion through at least the fourth month of pregnancy. As with other rights, this one comes with responsibility–to make the decision as early as possible in order to minimize the “human-ness” of the life being ended. So to the original question, the cost to society is the loss of life, just as the cost of automatic weapons or swine flu is the loss of life, however you define it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359/40 "2009-06-01T21:06:41Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > This. Abortion is murder (according to pro-lifers), so asking how abortion is harmful to society is sort of a no-brainer. But consider what the impact of legalizing actual murder would be. Everyone would carry guns, the death rate would soar, and people would live in fear. The harmful impact on society would be obvious. Besides the harm being that abortion happens, no such harm can be found in this case. Contraception can be considered just as harmful if you’re the Pope [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-legal-abortion-harmed-society/498359.md?page=3)