# How has Mormonism survived modern scrutiny? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841 "2010-07-15T22:23:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/1 "2010-07-15T22:23:37Z")
I just re-read Krakauer’s _Under the Banner of Heaven_ (highly recommend it by the way). I didn’t know too much about LDS before reading the book but Krakauer presents several curiosities about their dogma that are easily falsifiable, such as the claim the Native Americans are descended from Lost Tribes of Israel. Given that Mormonism arose during the time of the printing press, we have much historical data about its early days and the less than saintly behavior of its prophet. Despite all this it’s one of the fastest growing religions in the world (probably has a lot to do with the sky high birth rates of its members), and doesn’t appear to be in any danger of falling apart. So what is it about Mormonism that has allowed it to overcome these significant barriers to achieve a certain level of general acceptance within the population? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/2 "2010-07-15T22:37:07Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > So what is it about Mormonism that has allowed it to overcome these significant barriers to achieve a certain level of general acceptance within the population? They proselytize like crazy throughout the United States and much of the world. They’ve got a surprisingly large number of people in Latin America and Asia who they have converted in the last 20+ years. Why? For whatever reason the Mormon message resonates with a lot of people. Also, they seem like such nice people. The Mormon missionaries I’ve spoken to have been very nice people and even the regular Mormons I’ve occasionally come into contact with have seemed like very nice and happy people. Maybe that has something to do with it. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/3 "2010-07-15T22:59:49Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > So what is it about Mormonism that has allowed it to overcome these significant barriers to achieve a certain level of general acceptance within the population? How about the fact that, at its core, it’s no more ridiculous than any other religion? ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/4 "2010-07-15T23:01:45Z")
> [@akennett](#): > > How about the fact that, at its core, it’s no more ridiculous than any other religion? Yes, but the difference is all of the events leading to its creation occured in the modern era, that’s the whole point of titling the thread, “How has Mormonism survived **modern** scrutiny.” ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/5 "2010-07-15T23:05:59Z")
Try looking into Scientology, which was founded in the lifetime of many of the people alive today. That’s some _ **serious** _ crazy, but they keep getting new members. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/6 "2010-07-15T23:16:32Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Try looking into Scientology, which was founded in the lifetime of many of the people alive today. That’s some _ **serious** _ crazy, but they keep getting new members. And that’s despite a fairly organized (at least since the inception of the WWW) movement in opposition to it. Mormons only really have the more hardcore evangelical churches opposing them (at least the official LDS, anyway), but the opposition to Scientology attracts not only a fair number of Christian sects, but a LOT of agnostics/atheists/humanists who are dedicated to debunking it as a cultic scam. ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/7 "2010-07-15T23:22:00Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Try looking into Scientology, which was founded in the lifetime of many of the people alive today. That’s some _ **serious** _ crazy, but they keep getting new members. It is also an interesting case study. IMO, they are somewhere in the gray area between a cult and a fully accepted religious faith currently. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/8 "2010-07-15T23:28:56Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > They proselytize like crazy throughout the United States and much of the world. They’ve got a surprisingly large number of people in Latin America and Asia who they have converted in the last 20+ years. Why? For whatever reason the Mormon message resonates with a lot of people. Also, they seem like such nice people. The Mormon missionaries I’ve spoken to have been very nice people and even the regular Mormons I’ve occasionally come into contact with have seemed like very nice and happy people. Maybe that has something to do with it. > Odesio This doubtless helps a great deal. Mormons believe some wacky things, but every Mormon I’ve ever met is someone I’d count amongst the _nicest_ people I’ve ever met. It’s actually kind of creepy. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/9 "2010-07-15T23:29:10Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > I just re-read Krakauer’s _Under the Banner of Heaven_ (highly recommend it by the way). I didn’t know too much about LDS before reading the book but Krakauer presents several curiosities about their dogma that are easily falsifiable, such as the claim the Native Americans are descended from Lost Tribes of Israel. > > Given that Mormonism arose during the time of the printing press, we have much historical data about its early days and the less than saintly behavior of its prophet. > > Despite all this it’s one of the fastest growing religions in the world (probably has a lot to do with the sky high birth rates of its members), and doesn’t appear to be in any danger of falling apart. > > So what is it about Mormonism that has allowed it to overcome these significant barriers to achieve a certain level of general acceptance within the population? Because, in the words of [the Reverend Dr. Dr. (Mr. M.D.) David N. Meyer II, Pope of All New York City, Idaho, and the Great Pacific Northwest:](http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/answers/articles/X0048_Re__Interview_w_Pope.html) "You do not use your **mind** to think about your **religion!"** ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/10 "2010-07-16T00:36:33Z")
Mormons have sky high birth rates? Let’s see some cites for that, if you don’t mind. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/11 "2010-07-16T00:38:49Z")
Very large families born into the religion and most of them as acritically accepting of it as most Catholics or Baptists or Seventh Day Adventists are of their’s. ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/12 "2010-07-16T00:51:08Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Mormons have sky high birth rates? Let’s see some cites for that, if you don’t mind. Sure, let me see if I can dig em up… > **[UFABET เว็บหลัก เข้าสู่ระบบ ล่าสุด ยูฟ่าเบท อันดับ 1 เว็บพนันใหม่ล่าสุด](https://www.grandcafe-jc.com/menu)** > > เว็บใหญ่สุดในประเทศไทย UFABET รองรับทุกแพลตฟอร์มทางเลือกอันดับ 1 ทำกำไรได้ครบวงจรและปลอดภัยที่สุดในปี 2025 ห้ามพลาด เว็บยูฟ่าเบท > [@](#): > > The new federal study reported that Utah’s “fertility rate” – the number of live births per 1,000 women ages 15 to 44 – was 93.1. That is 41 percent higher than the national average of 65.9. The next highest fertility rate among the states was 81.1 in Arizona… > **[Vital Statistics - The Encyclopedia of Mormonism](https://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Vital_Statistics)** > [@](#): > > In the twentieth century, the LDS and Utah birthrates generally have been parallel with, but substantially higher than, birthrates in the United States (Fig. 6). After 1965, the United States birthrate continued to decline, but Utah experienced another baby boom while the total LDS birthrate leveled off at a relatively high level. Since 1980, both Utah and total LDS birthrates have declined precipitously, though still remaining above total U.S. levels. So according to BYU there has been significant normalization of birth rates over the last 40 years, but still a high level than the general population. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/13 "2010-07-16T00:51:42Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Mormons have sky high birth rates? Let’s see some cites for that, if you don’t mind. Utah’s birthrate is the highest in the [United States](http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700251966,00.html?pg=2) by a sizable margin, as well as the largest proportion of Mormons in the population. Unless there’s some other factor I’m unaware of that makes people massively more likely to breed in Utah then in neighboring states, It appears mormons birthrates are sizably higher then the US average. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/14 "2010-07-16T01:03:05Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Mormons have sky high birth rates? Let’s see some cites for that, if you don’t mind. After all these years, I’m fairly used to you being a knee-jerk apologist of Mormonism, but . . . y’know . . . what in the world is this knee-jerk response all about? Did you somehow take it as derogatory? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/15 "2010-07-16T01:06:59Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > Despite all this it’s one of the fastest growing religions in the world (probably has a lot to do with the sky high birth rates of its members), and doesn’t appear to be in any danger of falling apart. That’s actually in question. The LDS Church releases membership figures annually and they invariably claim that their membership roles are growing. However, there’s substantial variance between what they claim and what others have found. In the United States they claim to have over two percent of the population on their roles, but general surveys in which people state their religion give smaller figures. The claims of rapid growth in Latin America don’t match up with surveys down there. Some people think that rather than growing, the LDS Church is actually shrinking. Of course, the leadership keeps everything secret not only from outsiders but also from its own members, so we can’t really be sure of everything. As I see it, until about 50 years ago most Mormons lived in fairly isolated communities in the American west, and it was fairly easy for a person to grow up, live, and die without having too much contact with anyone on the outside. Now, with the rise of modern media and the internet and basic changes in society, it’s much more difficult. The LDS leaders know that almost anyone who learns the truth about the Book of Abraham, the Kinderhook Plates, Joseph Smith’s con artistry, his sexual exploitation of women, the numerous doctrines that have been changed over the years, the priesthood ban, and scores of other embarrassing issues is going to leave the Church. Their only hope is to prevent the rank-and-file members from learning the truth, and that’s becoming harder and harder to do. There is certainly a large and growing movement of [ex-Mormons](http://www.exmormon.org/) who have left because of these issues. That said, there will always be a few who will defend it to the last. DNA studies show that Native Americans are completely unrelated to Jews? No problem. We’ll just rewrite the _Book of Mormon_ to say that the Nephites and Lamanites only made up a small portion of the Native American population, too small for their genes to show up in present-day studies. Problem solved! ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/16 "2010-07-16T01:23:51Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As I see it, until about 50 years ago most Mormons lived in fairly isolated communities in the American west, and it was fairly easy for a person to grow up, live, and die without having too much contact with anyone on the outside. Now, with the rise of modern media and the internet and basic changes in society, it’s much more difficult. The LDS leaders know that almost anyone who learns the truth about the Book of Abraham, the Kinderhook Plates, Joseph Smith’s con artistry, his sexual exploitation of women, the numerous doctrines that have been changed over the years, the priesthood ban, and scores of other embarrassing issues is going to leave the Church. Their only hope is to prevent the rank-and-file members from learning the truth, and that’s becoming harder and harder to do. T**here is certainly a large and growing movement of [ex-Mormons](http://www.exmormon.org/) who have left because of these issues.** That’s somewhat heartening to hear. I wonder if most devolve back into a different form of Christianity, or go the Agnostic/Atheist route. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/17 "2010-07-16T01:34:09Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > I just re-read Krakauer’s _Under the Banner of Heaven_ (highly recommend it by the way). I didn’t know too much about LDS before reading the book but Krakauer presents several curiosities about their dogma that are easily falsifiable, such as the claim the Native Americans are descended from Lost Tribes of Israel. > > Given that Mormonism arose during the time of the printing press, we have much historical data about its early days and the less than saintly behavior of its prophet. > > Despite all this it’s one of the fastest growing religions in the world (probably has a lot to do with the sky high birth rates of its members), and doesn’t appear to be in any danger of falling apart. > > So what is it about Mormonism that has allowed it to overcome these significant barriers to achieve a certain level of general acceptance within the population? This is a great question and one that I’ve meditated a lot on, being raised Mormon, having proselyted for two years, and eventually leaving the church. First off, let’s dispel the notion that Mormonism is the fastest growing religion. It’s just not true, and Mormons don’t even claim it anymore. It’s usually just a line that lazy journalists throw into a profile of Mitt Romney or Harry Reid. Mormonism IS growing, which is unusual in non-Evangelical American religions, but not at a great rate. Part of the problem is that Mormons don’t count members the same way other churches do. Nothing wrong with that, but it makes comparison difficult. Mormons count every person ever baptized. Even if you never go to church again, or consider yourself Mormon, or go convert to another religion, you’ll still count as a Mormon. Until you die or, if they’ve lost your address, until you turn 120 years old. This is a huge bloat in the numbers and why you can’t take membership statistics from Mormonism at face value. I don’t have the polling data in front of me, but something like 50% of baptized Mormons self-identify as Mormons, and only something like 30% of the total attend regularly. Anyway, all that numbers talk is just a prelude to say that Mormonism IS in trouble in the modern world. Conversions are down. Number of missionaries is down (although probably more for demographic reasons). People leaving is up. The internet has absolutely had a huge impact in disseminating damaging information about the church. The only real surprise to me is that it’s not in more trouble, which I think is the question posed by the OP. Mormonism, in my opinion, plays a much larger role in the social life of its members than many other religions. It’s not just three hours of church on Sunday. There are activities several times a week, plus every one has a job (like at a party at [Joe Mayo](http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheReversePeephole.htm)’s apartment) so you have Mormon stuff to do ALL THE TIME. It’s a lifestyle. And once you are enmeshed in that lifestyle, and your family is in it, and your in-laws are in it, and your best friend is in it, suddenly it becomes a lot harder to evaluate outside evidence (even when it is overwhelming) objectively. Choosing to believe what is perfectly obvious to outsiders (that Mormonism is clearly false) means detonating an atom bomb in your life and you may end up blowing up your own family. Is knowing the truth worth ruining your life? It’s hard to say. Mormonism will never die because it is so malleable. It will shrink though, and I think they’ve already given up on becoming a Major World Religion that they thought was just around the corner in the 1980s. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/18 "2010-07-16T01:41:39Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > That’s somewhat heartening to hear. I wonder if most devolve back into a different form of Christianity, or go the Agnostic/Atheist route. It depends on what you mean by “ex-Mormon.” People who were raised Mormon and now don’t have any interest in church? They probably aren’t Christian or Atheist. Just indifferent. People like me who actively chosen to have my membership terminated generally drift toward Atheism, although some find new Christian homes. In my circle the UU is popular, although I guess you could argue this is a baby step toward atheism/agnosticism. In my experience, Mormons converting to an Evangelical religion is pretty rare. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/19 "2010-07-16T01:56:17Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The claims of rapid growth in Latin America don’t match up with surveys down there. I wish I could recall where- I’ll look for it- but I read in a print magazine in an office recently that the Latin America statistics for LDS conversion and conversion to other faiths include a lot of Latinos who convert and then a few days/weeks/months later say whatever the Spanish is for “well, that seemed a good idea at the time, but nah!”. Very few conversions last more than a year. ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/20 "2010-07-16T02:05:57Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > This is a great question and one that I’ve meditated a lot on, being raised Mormon, having proselyted for two years, and eventually leaving the church. > > First off, let’s dispel the notion that Mormonism is the fastest growing religion. Thanks, I took that “fastest-growing religion” line from Krakauer’s book so I’m glad to get a correction. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841.md?page=2)