# How has Mormonism survived modern scrutiny? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841 "2010-07-15T22:23:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/241 "2012-07-22T17:52:06Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > I’m surprised you didn’t hear about the golden plates and the Book of Mormon story of Jesus visiting the Hebrew inhabitants. That is what they refer to as the “Keystone of our religion”. As a missionary, I think it was mentioned in the first of 6 discussions, and was the focus of the third discussion. IIRC, anyway. I used to have the discussions memorized verbatim in 3 languages, but it’s been a while. > > What you don’t learn about as a prospective convert is the temple ceremony (including the funny underwear), homophobia, the belief that these are the latter days and thus Jesus will be here any day now to set up his kingdom in Missouri, and just how much time you will be expected to invest in meetings and “callings”. And then they hope you will _never_ learn about polygamy, racism, blood atonement, Adam=God doctrine, the gory parts removed from the temple ceremony, and basically anything related to the history of the church outside of their latest sanitized version. If I had heard of any of that, I would have bid my friend sayonara a lot sooner. It was only because of that lack that I stuck around for a short while. Mormons didn’t really seem all that different from Catholics, Quakers, or Methodists. They went to church, they led a good life, they were nice people. It was only later that my eyes were opened to the absurdities. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/242 "2012-07-22T18:51:14Z")
An article relevant to the OP: [“Confessions of an Ex-Mormon”](http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/magazine/104901/ex-mormon-romney-religion-kirn?page=0,0). To answer the question “How has Mormonism survived modern scrutiny,” he simply never scrutinized it. When he was a teenager and it fit his social needs, he believed. When he outgrew it and it all felt kinda silly, he stopped believing. He still appreciates the friendly Mormon culture, but has no Mormon belief. And anecdotally, he describes himself as non-Mormon and ex-Mormon, but unless he has resigned in writing he is still tallied as one of the 14 million. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/243 "2012-07-22T19:00:37Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > There is no special project. They seek to posthumously baptize _everyone_, not just holocaust victims. I’ve heard a boast that they’ve been dunked for-and-in-behalf-of half a billion names. That sounds like a reasonable guess. I personally had been dunked for several hundred. But their claimed membership is 14 million. They don’t list any of the baptisms for the dead among their membership. > > And it’s been mentioned several times in this thread that they no longer claim to be the fastest growing religion. > > There was an interesting article last week in the Salt Lake Tribune. The title was something like “920,000 Mormons Disappear in Brazil”. [edit: Here it is: [“Brazil mystery: Case of the missing Mormons (913,045 of them, to be exact)”](http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/54497395-180/church-census-lds-reported.html.csp).] The official LDS count of the number of Mormons in Brazil is about 500% higher than the number who self-identify is Mormons on the census. Of the 14,000,000 million Mormons worldwide, several million of those live in South America. And most of those would probably be surprised to learn that they are technically Mormons. So really, that’s how the church grows. They baptize people who don’t know what they’re getting into, and then they don’t follow up. The people go on with their lives as if it never happened, and the church brags about its missionary success. Sounds like what I read a bout Mormon missionaries in London (baptizing drunks-in exchange for a fish and chips lunch). "Chip 'em and dip 'em! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/244 "2012-07-22T20:56:46Z")
Deleted. Already addressed in other posters’ posts above. ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/245 "2012-07-22T22:30:13Z")
[quote=“Musicat, post:239, topic:546841”] [li]The idea of pre-Columbian contact with America[/li][/QUOTE] I have to laugh at anybody who thinks that this is a wacky idea these days. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/246 "2012-07-22T22:36:19Z")
> [@Randvek](#): > > I have to laugh at anybody who thinks that this is a wacky idea these days. Well, we’re not talking about any old contact. We’re talking about the specific claims made by the LDS religion. Not sure it’s any whackier than claims made by other religions\*, but to us non-religious types, it’s pretty darn whacky. \*That a Catholic priest is literally turning bread into the actual flesh of Jesus Christ, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/247 "2012-07-22T22:50:13Z")
> [@Randvek](#): > > > [@Musicat](#): > > > > The idea of pre-Columbian contact with America > > I have to laugh at anybody who thinks that this is a wacky idea these days. From Palestine? In biblical times? ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/248 "2012-07-22T23:18:38Z")
On an unrelated note, I noticed that someone has been putting up hidden camera footage of the Mormon temple ceremony on YouTube. It was only a matter of time. The upshot is that all of you can be as bored as we were! (Mormons have to sit through the exact same ceremony thousands of times over the course of their lives.) I assume they can’t upload the movie portions of the ceremony due to copyright restrictions, but there is a pretty clear video of the series of secret handshakes and passwords that supposedly you have to give the angels to get into heaven. You also get a look at the unfortunate outfits everyone has to wear: white robes, green aprons, and baker’s hats for the men. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH3vvWZptXo) Unfortunately, the guy who uploaded the videos is a total douchebag, though. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/249 "2012-07-22T23:49:35Z")
The guy who posted that video is a WONJCT who thinks the Mormon church is going to run the country. Shades of the loons surrounding the attacks on JFK. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/250 "2012-07-22T23:58:06Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The guy who posted that video is a WONJCT who thinks the Mormon church is going to run the country. Shades of the loons surrounding the attacks on JFK. I agree. That’s why I called him a douchebag. Frankly, he’s lucky the Secret Service isn’t knocking on his door. But he’s the only one with footage (for now) so I’ll have to ignore his idiotic comments under the videos. I should point out to people who are curious that the ceremony isn’t very exciting (they cut the only exciting part out 20 years ago), but if you’re dying of curiosity and the transcripts online aren’t good enough, you can see what it actually looks like. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/251 "2012-07-23T00:39:09Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The guy who posted that video is a WONJCT For anyone else who has no idea what this means, I googled it and ended up at a thread started by Monty. Broadly speaking it means conspiracy theorist - if you want to know exactly what it means, you’ll have to google it yourself as I don’t wanna spoil the suprise without Monty’s permission! ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/252 "2012-07-23T00:41:21Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > On an unrelated note, I noticed that someone has been putting up hidden camera footage of the Mormon temple ceremony on YouTube. It was only a matter of time. > > The upshot is that all of you can be as bored as we were! (Mormons have to sit through the exact same ceremony thousands of times over the course of their lives.) I assume they can’t upload the movie portions of the ceremony due to copyright restrictions, but there is a pretty clear video of the series of secret handshakes and passwords that supposedly you have to give the angels to get into heaven. > > You also get a look at the unfortunate outfits everyone has to wear: white robes, green aprons, and baker’s hats for the men. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH3vvWZptXo](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH3vvWZptXo) > > Unfortunately, the guy who uploaded the videos is a total douchebag, though. Ok, I’ve just watched the video. That is **blatantly** nicked from masonic cermony. Do mormons acknowledge the link? ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/253 "2012-07-23T01:41:43Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > Ok, I’ve just watched the video. That is **blatantly** nicked from masonic cermony. > > Do mormons acknowledge the link? Yes, kind of. But it is never brought up in church, and I had no idea for a long time. I mean, everyone knows Joseph Smith was a Mason but you’re not supposed to talk about the temple ceremony outside of the temple, even to other Mormons. Unless you read about it online or have someone tell you, it is possible to be a temple-going Mormon and not to realize the Mason connection. The underwear (garments) that you have to wear also has Masonic symbols sewn into it, too, and I remember being rather upset when I first discovered that they were just Masonry symbols and not some special symbols that God invented just for us. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/254 "2012-07-23T02:28:52Z")
> [@Confused dart cum](#): > > For anyone else who has no idea what this means, I googled it and ended up at a thread started by Monty. Broadly speaking it means conspiracy theorist - if you want to know exactly what it means, you’ll have to google it yourself as I don’t wanna spoil the suprise without Monty’s permission! Really? I’ll be stunned if it turns out I coined the term. I really thought it was something I’d picked up from this very board. Feel free to spoil. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/255 "2012-07-23T05:11:34Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Deleted. Already addressed in other posters’ posts above. Awww, come on. Now I’m really curious. > [@Monty](#): > > Really? I’ll be stunned if it turns out I coined the term. I really thought it was something I’d picked up from this very board. Feel free to spoil. Google confirms that Monty coined the term, and then he pretended that everyone else was an idiot for not already knowing it. And as has already been established in other threads on the SDMB, anyone who thinks that the Oath of Consecration is a conflict of interest for a POTUS candidate is a conspiracy theorist. It doesn’t matter that no actual conspiracy is posited. In Montyland, CT is an acronym for Conflict of Interest. ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/256 "2012-07-23T05:27:34Z")
Okay, I was wrong. The term was first used in 2008 by a poster named johnhenry at [koreabridge.com](http://koreabridge.com), by a Mormon with ties to Korea whose posting style is remarkably similar to … drumroll for suspense … **Monty** ’s! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/257 "2012-07-23T06:12:13Z")
> [@Rhodes](#): > > Okay, I was wrong. The term was first used in 2008 by a poster named johnhenry at [koreabridge.com](http://koreabridge.com), by a Mormon with ties to Korea whose posting style is remarkably similar to … drumroll for suspense … **Monty** ’s! That would be because I post on that site as johnhenry. By the way, the CT posited is the supposed conflict of interest. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/258 "2012-07-23T16:16:39Z")
Another by the way: Maybe (although I doubt it) I’m the first to use the abbreviations for it, but I’m certainly no the first to use the term _Whacked-Out Nut-Job Conspiracy Theorist_. Here endeth the hijack (I hope). ---
**Author:** ![Rhodes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhodes/32/273_2.png) [@Rhodes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhodes)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/259 "2012-07-23T16:52:12Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > I agree. That’s why I called him a douchebag. Frankly, he’s lucky the Secret Service isn’t knocking on his door. But he’s the only one with footage (for now) so I’ll have to ignore his idiotic comments under the videos. > > I should point out to people who are curious that the ceremony isn’t very exciting (they cut the only exciting part out 20 years ago), but if you’re dying of curiosity and the transcripts online aren’t good enough, you can see what it actually looks like. The guy hyping the temple video, alias Newnamenoah, claims to also have a video of Romney taking the Oath of Consecration. In response to criticism that the Secret Service was going to be all over him for stalking a candidate, he claims to have called the Secret Service and introduced himself. I suspect he’s full of shit, and I hope he doesn’t get into legal troubles for entering private property under false pretenses and then violating the owners’ privacy. We’ll just have to wait until late September (when the Romney video supposedly goes viral) to find out. Conspiracy theory or not, communist or not, the video (if it exists) will make a lot of voters uneasy. It will show Romney in white robes with a baker’s cap and green apron, behind closed doors consenting to an oath to participate in Joseph Smith’s failed experiment in socialism. [Here’s the oath](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_consecration): > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Adherents are asked to stand and raise their right hands while the Temple Narrator reads the following oath: “Each of you bring your right arm to the square. You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the Law of Consecration as contained in this, (The Officiator holds up a copy of the Doctrine and Covenants again.), the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.” Whether it’s fair or not to point out the absurdities in Romney’s religion, Mormonism has certainly been getting a lot more “modern scrutiny” in the past 4 years. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/260 "2012-07-23T17:14:31Z")
I missed it, what was the exciting thing that they stopped doing 20 years ago? Was it the in-temple annointing of oils? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841.md?page=14)