# How has Mormonism survived modern scrutiny? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841 "2010-07-15T22:23:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/81 "2010-07-17T03:27:31Z")
For those of you comparing Mormonism to Scientology or saying that it’s worse than Scientology, I can only roll my eyes :rolleyes:. The Mormons don’t try to separate you from family members that aren’t Mormon. They don’t makes you spend boatloads of money to learn their doctrines (yeah, they encourage you to tithe 10 percent, but they don’t harass you if you can’t pay). And if you want to leave the church, they let you leave the church. Some of your fellow congregants may call you out of concern, but they’re generally not going to stalk you or otherwise try to force you back in. So, even if you find their beliefs ridiculous, they’re still a much more benign organization than the Scientologists. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/82 "2010-07-17T10:57:56Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > This doubtless helps a great deal. Mormons believe some wacky things, but every Mormon I’ve ever met is someone I’d count amongst the _nicest_ people I’ve ever met. It’s actually kind of creepy. And, in people’s minds, that often tends to override how horrible your history is. Heck, I can think of a few sects where it makes up for the bigotry and other wrongdoing of the participants. Really, modern Mormonism is a pretty okay religion. All the atrocities seem to be pretty far in the past, now. And, while some beliefs are silly, they don’t really affect anyone outside the group. I really think you guys here assume a lot more people care about a testable version of the truth. The average person only bothers to care if it’s affecting them negatively. Also, remember polygamy is not officially sanctioned anymore. In fact, I’d think you guys would be happy that the religion is willing to update with the times. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/83 "2010-07-17T11:57:07Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > My daughter had a lot of Mormon friends in junior high and high school, and even had a card that let her get into Mormon dances. That’s a new one on me. Every LDS church dance I’ve attended in whatever country I happened to be has always been open to one and all. There was one dance on a Valentine’s Day that required reservations and a payment to the professional photographer for a keepsake photo, but anyone who wanted to could’ve signed up for that dance. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/84 "2010-07-17T12:08:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > **Leviathan swims though thread and eats chappachula.** Leviathan could have been a catch-all term for any huge freakin’ marine animal- whales, giant squid, or even crocodiles. Behemoth- for any such land animal- elephants, rhinos, hippos. And of course, dinosaurs. 😉 As far as eating Chappachula, I think they’d prefer chupacabras… or chimichangas. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/85 "2010-07-17T12:14:16Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > How sure are we that Joseph Smith taught and practiced plural marriage? 100%. Seriously, there’s no question. That Joseph’s widow (his first wife) and her son would later deny this while trying to establish their branch of Mormonism shouldn’t be too surprising. I don’t believe that the Community of Christ (the current incarnation of this branch of Mormonism) still bothers denying Joseph’s secret promulgation and propagation of polygamy. > > The only thing we don’t know is how many of these relationships he consummated sexually, as some of the “wives” were rather old at the time, and were probably wives in name only. And his first “wife” was probably not a wife at all, but rather just an affair with a 16-year-old girl living in his home named Fanny Alger. > > This is a good resource site for the wives of Joseph Smith: [http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/](http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/) The current LDS Church would love for their to be evidence that Smith didn’t encourage or practice polygamy. They could take that directive out of the Doctrines & Covenants, claim that Young & his circle in a time of falleness had instituted it tho that did not negate his Prophethood (just like Kings Saul, David & Solomon during their fallings-away still did not cease being the Anointing King), that the Church was properly chastised for it by God’s using the powers of the Gentiles to purify it- and that would be that. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/86 "2010-07-17T12:29:58Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > The Mormons don’t try to separate you from family members that aren’t Mormon… And if you want to leave the church, they let you leave the church. Some of your fellow congregants may call you out of concern, but they’re generally not going to stalk you or otherwise try to force you back in. > So, even if you find their beliefs ridiculous, they’re still a much more benign organization than the Scientologists. Anecdotal evidence only, but this seems to be the experience of R, a friend of mine. He was born and raised in the LDS church, but left years ago. However, he remains in touch with his family. Apparently, a few of them are concerned about his spiritual future, but not enough to forcibly return him to the church; or alternately, to shun him totally. R reports that family gatherings are occasionally a little strained because of this, but he still attends things like Christmas dinners, birthdays, and other family celebrations. R has few good things to say about the beliefs and rituals of the LDS church, but he does willingly grant that they impart a terrific sense of family, and a great work ethic. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/87 "2010-07-17T13:06:41Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And, while some beliefs are silly, they don’t really affect anyone outside the group. Except when they funnel money into anti-same-sex marriage campaigns and the like. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/88 "2010-07-17T13:08:18Z")
> [@joebuck20](#): > > For those of you comparing Mormonism to Scientology or saying that it’s worse than Scientology, I can only roll my eyes :rolleyes:. Who said that ? \*\*Gonzomax \*\*and I were discussing (well, pointing our fingers and having a laugh at, really) the specifics of their respective beliefs - which have zero to do with their methods, rituals or behaviours. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/89 "2010-07-17T19:14:37Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > That’s a new one on me. Every LDS church dance I’ve attended in whatever country I happened to be has always been open to one and all. There was one dance on a Valentine’s Day that required reservations and a payment to the professional photographer for a keepsake photo, but anyone who wanted to could’ve signed up for that dance. For the last couple decades, at least, every stake-run dance in Utah, Nevada, and California (that I’ve heard of, at least) has required that you get a “dance card” in order to attend, whether you’re Mormon or not. To get a card you have to do a brief interview with a bishop, and pledge not to drink, do drugs, have sex in the bathroom, etc. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/90 "2010-07-17T19:19:00Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > How sure are we that Joseph Smith taught and practiced plural marriage? 100%. Seriously, there’s no question. That Joseph’s widow (his first wife) and her son would later deny this while trying to establish their branch of Mormonism shouldn’t be too surprising. I don’t believe that the Community of Christ (the current incarnation of this branch of Mormonism) still bothers denying Joseph’s secret promulgation and propagation of polygamy. > > The only thing we don’t know is how many of these relationships he consummated sexually, as some of the “wives” were rather old at the time, and were probably wives in name only. And his first “wife” was probably not a wife at all, but rather just an affair with a 16-year-old girl living in his home named Fanny Alger. > > This is a good resource site for the wives of Joseph Smith: [http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/](http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/) It’s unclear to me how much scholarly credence to give that website. I remember reading before that it seemed fairly clear and The Community of Christ , founded as the RLDS by his son, seemed to accpet that it was probably true. I found this on [their site](http://www.cofchrist.org/ourfaith/faq.asp) > [@](#): > > Community of Christ takes into account the growing body of scholarly research and publications depicting the polygamous teachings and practices of the Nauvoo period of church history (1840–1846). The context of these developments included a time of religious and cultural experimentation in the United States and the emergence of a system of secret temple ordinances in Nauvoo that accented the primacy of family connections, in this life and the next. The practice of plural marriage emerged from that context and involved a small group of key leaders entering into polygamous marriage rituals and covenants. Research findings point to Joseph Smith Jr. as a significant source for plural marriage teaching and practice at Nauvoo. However, several of his associates later wrote that he repudiated the plural marriage system and began to try to stop its practice shortly before his death in June 1844. Evidently his son never believed his Dad was guilty which may have been why the church taught it never happened for so long. Interesting that Emma didn’t set the record straight. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/91 "2010-07-17T19:21:31Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > The current LDS Church would love for their to be evidence that Smith didn’t encourage or practice polygamy. They could take that directive out of the Doctrines & Covenants, claim that Young & his circle in a time of falleness had > instituted it tho that did not negate his Prophethood (just like Kings Saul, David & Solomon during their fallings-away still did not cease being the Anointing King), that the Church was properly chastised for it by God’s using the powers of the Gentiles to purify it- and that would be that. Doesn’t seem like it would matter one way or the other. You have to denounce a prophet/leader as mistaken either way. They do that right? ---
**Author:** ![curtd59](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bbce88/32.png) [@curtd59](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curtd59)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/92 "2010-07-17T19:25:29Z")
> [@peledre](#): > > So what is it about Mormonism that has allowed it to overcome these significant barriers to achieve a certain level of general acceptance within the population? Well, all religious dogmas are insane. Pick any monotheistic religion and it’s tenets are simply absurd. On the other hand mormon social order is extremely comforting - at least in a luddite germanic fashion. The unstated and important effect of Mormonism is the AMOUNT OF WEALTH that is concentrated in the church and how it is put to social, political and economic purposes, most of which appear to be materially beneficial to both mormons and society. The church is getting wealthy. There are worse religions in this world than mormonism. For example, the Bank Of Sweden awarding Nobel Prizes in Economics to ridiculous gaussian model builders whose work is then appropriated for political ends by the Church Of Egalitarian Democratic Socialist Pseudo-scientific Humanitarianism. Black swans are not uncommon, so to speak. So which dogma produces worse ends? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/93 "2010-07-17T19:37:22Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > For the last couple decades, at least, every stake-run dance in Utah, Nevada, and California (that I’ve heard of, at least) has required that you get a “dance card” in order to attend, whether you’re Mormon or not. To get a card you have to do a brief interview with a bishop, and pledge not to drink, do drugs, have sex in the bathroom, etc. I don’t recall her having to do that - though her friend’s father was a bishop, so maybe he could do it. The dances were not open to all, which was perfectly reasonable. She was amused that the couples had to dance with a space equal to the size of the Book of Mormon between them. ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/94 "2010-07-17T19:59:57Z")
Having lived in Idaho a good while, I knew quite a few LDS (most not hard-core of ‘belief’) and agree that most are nice and decent persons. I never got any real pressure, so to speak, to join up. On average, the LDS families were definitely larger than other places I am familiar with. I think part of the premise of the large family is that the religion says that there are innumerable unborn (or dead but unsaved?) souls awaiting a body and a person must be born to save that soul properly. I never paid much attention to the details, but seem to remember this having something to do with it. I may be thinking of a different religion, though (??). I had missionaries knocking on my door every few days it seems, and it got old _fast_. A young adult is supposed to give a year (or two??) of their life on a ‘mission’ so that they can enjoy the benefits (economic and otherwise) of LDS stuff thereon. LDS has HUGE income, and spreads it freely to pad the member numbers. I know this as I can think of four different families/persons that accepted cash to allow them to counted as ‘members’. LDS paid rent, electric bills, tax bills, whatever it took to get someone to say “I am LDS now” - and even if person never set foot in a church, they were counted as members according to mailings they started getting. There was certainly an element of bribery (lack of better word here) once a missionary told his ‘superior’ that they had a nibble on their hook. A person I knew, but did not respect much, took over 5 thousand dollars from them in cash/payments before telling them they were suckers (basically). Just floored me how blatant it was. Not right/ethical, imho, but its what was (is?) going on with membership in some cases around Twin Falls, ID, ao poaaibly elsewhere, too. Hopefully isolated cases and not the primary modus operandi of LDS overall but it definitely happened as I sat in on a few of the visits out of curiosity. It still floors me in recall. Oh yeah - a co-worker that was devoted-LDS got a large interest-free loan for a new house and he told me that he could get credits (money off loan) for each new member he sent, but it was not in the vague contract he signed for the loan. This person had 6 sons, fwiw, before he was 30 years old. The really funny thing is he looked _exactly_ like Ned Flanders and spoke like him as well. Eerie. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/95 "2010-07-17T20:03:09Z")
The big difference is the established religions prophets are long dead. Their warts and craziness is mostly buried with them. But Scientology and Mormonism is new enough so history has records of the leaders insanity. They were low class shysters and there are plenty of written records recording it. In a century or 2 the Mormons and Scientologists will be able to get away with claiming their leaders were saintly and pure. But not now. The warts still show. The Mormons have been busy changing their religion to disguise its flaws. They have suddenly found out that women and blacks are acceptable. They don’t advertise the aliens in space and getting your own planet when you die. I suppose they will eliminate that stuff along the line. Then they will be Catholics. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/96 "2010-07-17T21:28:07Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Except when they funnel money into anti-same-sex marriage campaigns and the like. I’m curious here. Are you aware of the difference between an organizational contribution and an individual’s contribution? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/97 "2010-07-17T21:32:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I don’t recall her having to do that - though her friend’s father was a bishop, so maybe he could do it. The dances were not open to all, which was perfectly reasonable. She was amused that the couples had to dance with a space equal to the size of the Book of Mormon between them. I’ve been to stake and ward dances in California in the last couple of decades. No cards required. Also, I’ve never heard, “You must dance with the distance equal to the size of the Book of Mormon.” What I have heard is, “No contact dancing–keep your bodies two hands apart.” ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/98 "2010-07-17T21:54:24Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > One thing I observe, living in a town with a larger Mormon population, is that there is a lot of social pressure to not leave. My daughter had a lot of Mormon friends in junior high and high school, and even had a card that let her get into Mormon dances. They seem to be very good at having social events to encourage LDs members to meet and date each other. She drifted away from her friends since they pretty much all went away to various BYUs, which gave another opportunity to marry people in the church. Unlike most young women, who seem to have some pressure to not marry until after school, they seemed very determined to marry as early as possible. Drifting away from the church, or even not doing a mission if you are a boy, has more impact than just sleeping late on Sunday. This, I think, is the main reason why religions (not just Mormonism) persist to this day – the fear of being ostracized if you leave the faith. There’s tons of pressure to conform, to remain part of the flock, and if you abandon your faith you risk abandoning all your peers as well. (I can speak from experience of this happening, at least with the Church of Christ.) It’s peer pressure of the greatest magnitude. On the other hand, the social experience is possibly one of the best things religion has going for it, at least if it’s merely a casual thing. I know of many people who still attend church for the social experience alone, even if they don’t really “believe” to the extent most Christians would want you to believe. In a way, it makes sense – church is one of the rare places where people accept you willingly and you don’t have to pay a monthly fee (although they will beg you to donate, of course!) So it’s kind of a paradox, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/99 "2010-07-17T23:48:14Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I’m curious here. Are you aware of the difference between an organizational contribution and an individual’s contribution? You ARE aware that the Morman Church as am organization heavily funds anti-gay inititives in states like California? As for my opinion of them; besides being irrational as all religions are, they are bigoted towards homosexuals and severely sexist. So no, they are not “nice people”; they are scum. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841/100 "2010-07-18T00:14:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You ARE aware that the Morman Church as am organization heavily funds anti-gay inititives in states like California? Actually, I’m aware that individual members made contributions. > [@](#): > > As for my opinion Can’t see any reason why I’d be any more interested in your opinion on this matter than in your opinion on any other matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-mormonism-survived-modern-scrutiny/546841.md?page=6)