# How has same sex marriage affected the five countries who have legalized it for a decade or more? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2016, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309 "2016-10-12T03:33:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/41 "2016-10-12T19:31:36Z")
> [@Kamino\_Neko](#): > > There are a noticeably larger number of married people. I’d expect it to be around 2.5%. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/42 "2016-10-12T19:38:20Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Besides being illogical, I don’t recall _anyone_ claiming that SSM would result in more illegitimate births. > > Can the OP provide a site that argued this back in the day? Here is [one](http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/davidbadash/tony_perkins_now_that_more_gays_will_be_marrying_out_of_wedlock_births_will_increase) Here is [two](http://newstalk1290.com/greg-abbot-says-texas-marriage-laws-reduce-out-of-wedlock-births/) And here is [me](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16437937&postcount=18)doing it. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/43 "2016-10-12T19:39:22Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > [http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/fl-lf/famil/stat2000/pdf/stats.pdf](http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/fl-lf/famil/stat2000/pdf/stats.pdf) > > Figure 3, which compares birth cohorts up to 1993, effectively demolishes your argument. You must have the wrong link, figure 3 does no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/44 "2016-10-12T19:47:14Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Maybe I’m missing something, but how in the world does legalizing the ability for two same-sex people to marry somehow translate into more heterosexual people having out of wedlock children? > > They seem like totally and utterly unrelated things. They are symptoms of the same problem. The weakening of marriage as an institution. The case for gay marriage is that marriage is about love and convenience. The case against is that it is about family. Since love and convenience are ephemeral, anything that is based on them is built on shifting sand. The recognition of gay marriage by the state puts us further down the road that marriage is not about family and thus we should expect fewer people creating stable families and more out of wedlock births and subsequent social pathologies. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/45 "2016-10-12T19:50:44Z")
Well, here in Spain we have youth unemployment through the roof and seem to be unable to form government- but I’m not sure that’s related to SSM, unless it’s caused some sort of divine punishment. But I think that general uselessness is more likely to be the culprit here. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/46 "2016-10-12T19:51:58Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > They are symptoms of the same problem. The weakening of marriage as an institution. The case for gay marriage is that marriage is about love and convenience. The case against is that it is about family. Since love and convenience are ephemeral, anything that is based on them is built on shifting sand. The recognition of gay marriage by the state puts us further down the road that marriage is not about family and thus we should expect fewer people creating stable families and more out of wedlock births and subsequent social pathologies. And where does your study connect gay marriage and out-of-wedlock children? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/47 "2016-10-12T19:52:55Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > They are symptoms of the same problem. The weakening of marriage as an institution. The case for gay marriage is that marriage is about love and convenience. The case against is that it is about family. Since love and convenience are ephemeral, anything that is based on them is built on shifting sand. The recognition of gay marriage by the state puts us further down the road that marriage is not about family and thus we should expect fewer people creating stable families and more out of wedlock births and subsequent social pathologies. Gay people have families too and did before SSM was legal. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/48 "2016-10-12T20:04:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And where does your study connect gay marriage and out-of-wedlock children? It doesn’t. It merely shows what we predicted would happen has happened. It may be a coincidence or we may have been prescient. I don’t think the tools are available to prove us definitively right but they seem to be pointing that way. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/49 "2016-10-12T20:07:31Z")
It’s like claiming gay marriage will move the moon away from the Earth, and then claiming “Aha! The moon _has_ moved away from the Earth! Proof!” and ignoring that the moon was doing that anyway and not providing any solid reason why gay marriage should affect this at all. And then later on, moving the goalposts and saying gay marriage and lunar recession are both symptoms of a greater problem. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/50 "2016-10-12T20:11:30Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It doesn’t. It merely shows what we predicted would happen has happened. It may be a coincidence or we may have been prescient. What you predicted would happen was already happening, putting the accomplishment at a level rather less impressive than prophesy, or even meteorology. But let’s indulge this for the sake of argument - if gay marriage was banned in places where it is now legal, by what mechanism would it _decrease_ out-of-wedlock births? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/51 "2016-10-12T20:11:31Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It doesn’t. It merely shows what we predicted would happen has happened. It may be a coincidence or we may have been prescient. I don’t think the tools are available to prove us definitively right but they seem to be pointing that way. The numbers were already moving that way, and also did so in countries without ssm. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/52 "2016-10-12T20:15:17Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > It doesn’t. It merely shows what we predicted would happen has happened. It may be a coincidence or we may have been prescient. I don’t think the tools are available to prove us definitively right but they seem to be pointing that way. Here’s some more examples of a similar phenomenon: > **[Spurious Correlations](http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations)** > > Correlation is not causation: thousands of charts of real data showing actual correlations between ridiculous variables. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/53 "2016-10-13T01:21:00Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Cool! I had not known that! That’s particularly good, because, when the U.S. finally dares to look into this, there will be an existing body of law that we can look at for guidance. > > (Why make up something completely new when you can just copy another guy’s notes?) Because the other guy’s notes may not relate to your situation. Under the South African legislation, its possible to register a marriage which has been concluded in accordance with customary African law (meaning “the customs and usages traditionally observed among the indigenous African peoples of South Africa and which form part of the culture of those peoples”). This operates to allow the recognition of polygynous marriages, since some - but not all - of the indigenous African communities practice polygyny, and you can only have your polygynous marriage recognised by concluding it under customary law, which is unlikely to be possible unless you or your spouse is a member of the community concerned. You can’t have polyandrous marriages recognised since there is no indigenous community in South Africa which practices polyandry. I don’t think you can map this onto the US situation and expect a similar outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/54 "2016-10-13T01:42:42Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Because the other guy’s notes may not relate to your situation. Under the South African legislation, its possible to register a marriage which has been concluded in accordance with customary African law (meaning “the customs and usages traditionally observed among the indigenous African peoples of South Africa and which form part of the culture of those peoples”). This operates to allow the recognition of polygynous marriages, since some - but not all - of the indigenous African communities practice polygyny, and you can only have your polygynous marriage recognised by concluding it under customary law, which is unlikely to be possible unless you or your spouse is a member of the community concerned. You can’t have polyandrous marriages recognised since there is no indigenous community in South Africa which practices polyandry. > > I don’t think you can map this onto the US situation and expect a similar outcome. Well, you could the historical (and for some, still current) Mormon model, and that’s as American a community as a community can get. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/55 "2016-10-13T04:40:28Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > You must have the wrong link, figure 3 does no such thing. Don’t think so. Figure 3 - 1963 single parent/common law couples made up roughly 6% families when a child was born. In 1993 that had shifted to roughly 30%. Gay marriage in Canada came into law in 2005. Your claim was that > [@](#): > > …it seems every nation you listed has seen an increase in the rate of out of wedlock children. That is what most of us anti-gay marriage people thought would happen and it seems we have been proved right. The data, however, shows that children were being born outside of conventional marriage in increasing numbers well before gay marriage was legalized. Your linkage is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/56 "2016-10-13T06:22:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, you could the historical (and for some, still current) Mormon model, and that’s as American a community as a community can get. You could. But I have a sneaking suspicion that that would not lead to legislation recognising models of polygamy that Trinopus might favour. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/57 "2016-10-13T07:10:56Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > You could. But I have a sneaking suspicion that that would not lead to legislation recognising models of polygamy that Trinopus might favour. Personally, I’d rather see legal polygamy, were it to come about, evolving out of partnership law rather than marital law. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/58 "2016-10-13T07:31:45Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > They are symptoms of the same problem. The weakening of marriage as an institution. The case for gay marriage is that marriage is about love and convenience. The case against is that it is about family. Since love and convenience are ephemeral, anything that is based on them is built on shifting sand. The recognition of gay marriage by the state puts us further down the road that marriage is not about family and thus we should expect fewer people creating stable families and more out of wedlock births and subsequent social pathologies. It’s an interesting, not completely illogical, but completely ephemeral theory because it’s based on a “changing vibe” idea. Vibes do change, or course, and who knows why. But your theory seems highly dubious on the face of it, and you’d need a careful statistical study to show the theory was correct. You ain’t got it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/59 "2016-10-13T07:42:23Z")
> [@Maastricht](#): > > Oh, and Dutch gay marriage has also led to more Dutch same-sex couples [adopting African- American children from the US](http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/16/world/international-adoption-us-children-adopted-abroad/). Her information isn’t accurate about the source countries: the US isn’t “the only country” (sic) that lets gay couples adopt. The numbers get better (not by much, but definitely \>1) if you include countries that allow single-parent adoption. Nobody asked my then-unpartnered sister in law what her sexual orientation was; she’s adopting from Bulgaria and once that paperwork is finished, Bro and her will get married and he’ll co-adopt (they’re already doing the Spanish paperwork with Bro’s lastname as the kid’s second). They’ve chosen to go that route because it means less total paperwork than if they get married before the kid gets here (he’ll be coming home for Christmas, they already have the dates!), but it would work just the same for a same sex couple. **Go\_Arachnid\_Laser** , considering that we’ve officially been government-less for a year and things are just same ol’ same ol’, I’m not sure that the inability to form a government is a problem. Other than give speeches and steal what the hell do they do, anyway? And they steal just as well from their seats in Parliament. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309/60 "2016-10-13T08:14:50Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Her information isn’t accurate about the source countries: the US isn’t “the only country” (sic) that lets gay couples adopt . . . This could be just an editing issue. The US is certainly not the only country in which gay couples can adopt, but the intersection of “countries which let gay couples adopt” and “countries which allow non-residents to adopt and remove children” may be populated by a relatively small number of countries, and the US may be the most prominent of these, or conceivably the only one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-has-same-sex-marriage-affected-the-five-countries-who-have-legalized-it-for-a-decade-or-more/768309.md?page=4)