# How high can punitive damages go? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 24, 2023, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524 "2023-05-24T15:39:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/1 "2023-05-24T15:39:59Z")
Theoretically, as I understand it, punitive damages are designed to deter future illegal behavior, in both the defendant and in others considering similar future behavior, as well as to punish the defendant for his past egregiously illegal behavior, and there is no top dollar amount that is theoretically possible. But suppose the jury is infuriated and wants to turn the defendant into a pauper, and further suppose the defendant is fabulously wealthy but insists on committing the acts he’s been found liable for previously and the previous sanctions have had no effect on his current actions. The past juries have hit him with punitive damages of 5 million, but he continues doing what he does, so the next jury hits him with 10 million, and the next one socks him with 20 million in damages. Still he blithely continues doing what all these juries have found him liable for. Can a jury ask to know how much he has left, and then hit him with every penny of that sum? Assuming they can do that, or something very close to that, what if he still persists in committing the act they have found him guilty of, even after every penny he has has been assessed? Is there a point where the judicial system just gives up, says “We’ve done all that we’re allowed to do”? Is the defendant free at that point to commit the act indefinitely? ---
**Author:** ![NinthAcolyte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ninthacolyte/32/13676_2.png) [@NinthAcolyte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinthAcolyte)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/2 "2023-05-24T15:53:56Z")
Eleven states have caps on punitive damages - this was relevant recently when Alex Jones was sued. Texas limited the amount of punitive damages that could be awarded in that case. Other states may have different caps or no caps at all. In regards to your hypothetical, a jury is instructed on methods for determining/awarding punitive damages. The jury of course _can_ do whatever - just like they _can_ find someone guilty or not guilty in defiance of the evidence. [The jury is _supposed_ to consider](https://www.cpmlegal.com/publication-Punitive_Damages_How_Much_Is_Enough) > [@](#): > > (1) The reprehensibility of the conduct of the defendant. > > (2) The amount of punitive damages which will have a deterrent effect on the defendant in the light of _defendant’s financial condition._ > > In addition, a defendant can ask that the jury be instructed to consider: > > (3) That the punitive damages must bear a reasonable relation to the injury, harm, or damage actually suffered by the plaintiff. I imagine that in the case that a jury discarded those guidelines and acted with intention to bankrupt a defendant, there would likely be solid grounds for an appeal. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/3 "2023-05-24T15:59:28Z")
> [@NinthAcolyte](#): > > The amount of punitive damages which will have a deterrent effect on the defendant in the light of _defendant’s financial condition._ Well, this is the key part, isn’t it? If the defendant, be he Elon Musk or Bill Gates or George Soros or Jeff Bezos, just laughs at the jury, says in so many words, “I have lots of money–if they hit me with a billion in damages, so what? I still have more billions than I can count,” is that the limit of the jury’s ability to deter his egregious behavior? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/4 "2023-05-24T16:02:24Z")
As with most questions of this type, it depends on the state. Each state has different rules for punitive damages. In some states your liabiity insurance will pay for them. In other states that’s against the law. Some states have caps based on a multiple of the actual damage incurred. Others may have other types of caps. In some states punitive damages are essentially unlimited. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/5 "2023-05-24T16:02:55Z")
In _BMW v. Gore,_ the Supreme Court held that a punitive award that was “grossly excessive” could violate the Due Process Clause. Which is pretty vague. The Court seemed to suggest that you look at three things: the degree of reprehensibility of the conduct; the disparity between the punitive damages and the harm suffered by the plaintiff; and “the difference between this remedy and the civil penalties authorized or imposed in comparable cases”. I don’t know how you apply all that, but I think that a jury motivated by an animus toward a particular defendant and a desire to turn him “into a pauper” is likely going to be problematic. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/6 "2023-05-24T16:06:14Z")
Also, it’s not uncommon for extremely high awards to be contested, and to be lowered by a judge. (After making the news.) ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/7 "2023-05-24T16:22:52Z")
Say a particular judge keeps hearing cases by the same plaintiff against the same defendant for repeating the same defamatory behavior already awarded in favor of the plaintiff. Does the judge have any recourse to impact the defendant beyond judgements by the juries? Could he/she hold the defendant in contempt? “Mr. Billionaire, I keep seeing you here for repeating behavior already determined to be defamatory. You clearly have no respect for the legal system or this courtroom. I’m holding you in contempt and fining you billion dollars for every time you discuss the defendant in public or on social media.” ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/8 "2023-05-24T16:41:54Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I’m holding you in contempt and fining you billion dollars for every time you discuss the defendant in public or on social media. It is unconstitutional to impose prior restraint on a person’s ability to speak. ---
**Author:** ![slicedalone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slicedalone/32/12515_2.png) [@slicedalone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slicedalone)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/9 "2023-05-24T16:47:25Z")
So it’s starting to sound like a mega-billionaire can keep committing an act he’s been previously sanctioned for, for as long as his bankbook holds up. Now that I think of it, if he keeps raising funds by appealing to those who agree with what he’s saying, this could even be a profit-making venture for him. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/10 "2023-05-24T16:50:22Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > for as long as his bankbook holds up. And long after. Judgment-proof tortfeasors are a perpetual concern. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2023, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/11 "2023-05-24T16:53:05Z")
IANAL, but ISTR that the SCOTUS has a general position on punitive damages that – among other things – puts a _suggested_ cap at 9X actual (compensatory) damages. > **[Punitive Damages](https://www.consumersafety.org/resources/punitive-damages/)** > > Punitive damages, or exemplary damages, are awarded to a plaintiff in addition to compensatory damages as a way to punish the defendant for a \[…\] > [@](#): > > Based upon this analysis, the Supreme Court overturned the punitive damages award in State Farm and established general limits on punitive damages awards. According to the court, “Few awards exceeding a single-digit ratio between punitive and compensatory damages… will satisfy due process.” Therefore, most courts will assess a maximum punitive award of four times the compensatory damages, unless the defendant’s behavior was exceptionally reckless. > > In the case of exceptional recklessness, or very modest compensatory awards, most courts will mandate a maximum punitive award of nine times the amount of compensatory damages, but there have been some exceptions to that rule. Any of our attorneys want to fact check my recollection (and cite)? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2023, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/12 "2023-06-04T04:32:41Z")
> [@NinthAcolyte](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > … > > (2) The amount of punitive damages which will have a deterrent effect on the defendant in the light of _defendant’s financial condition._ > > … How does this apply in civil cases against corporations? Since they can just deduct the ‘punitive damages’ from their taxes. Specifically thinking of the Fox News settlement with Dominion Voting Systems. The IRS allows them to treat lawsuit damages as ‘normal and customary’ business expenses, I don’t see how this has ANY deterrant effect. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2023, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/13 "2023-06-04T04:40:11Z")
IANAL, but my understanding is that in an un-capped state, there is no limit, and if the point is to deter bad behavior, then someone like Elon Musk could be hit for many billions of dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2023, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/14 "2023-06-04T05:19:08Z")
> [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](#): > > The IRS allows them to treat lawsuit damages as ‘normal and customary’ business expenses, I don’t see how this has ANY deterrant effect. Surely it would only fail to have ANY deterrent effect if the corporation’s marginal tax rate was 100%. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2023, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/15 "2023-06-04T14:39:01Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > > [@slicedalone](#): > > > > for as long as his bankbook holds up. > > And long after. Judgment-proof tortfeasors are a perpetual concern. This is what I call the “Kamikaze defense”. Basically “Go ahead and sue me. You won’t even recover attorney fees.” ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2023, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-punitive-damages-go/984524/16 "2023-06-04T15:44:18Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Any of our attorneys want to fact check my recollection (and cite)? This is, as you might imagine, a hotly contested legal issue. There are a lot of factors, but it generally boils down to the ratio between actual damages and the punitive award. The Supreme Court has said in Federal maritime cases, the limit is a one to one ratio to actual damages. For other cases, “a single digit” ratio (9:1) is generally the upper limit, but courts have found exceptions for small damage cases with really bad conduct. For most cases, courts will allow 4:1 without too much of a question, although for truly “substantial” actual damage awards, the Supreme Court has said 1 to 1 might be the limit. As had been noted, some states have caps, and other states require a percentage of any punitive verdict go to the State and not the plaintiff (but you can’t tell the jury that). Washington generally does not allow punitive damages, but you can get something similar for timber trespass, consumer protection, and insurance bad faith cases. You can also import the punitive damage law from another state under choice of law principles, if the conduct occurred in that other state.