# How high can they fly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [November 18, 2002, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270 "2002-11-18T04:44:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lawrinson911](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@lawrinson911](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawrinson911)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270/1 "2002-11-18T04:44:38Z")
In regards to a column Cecil wrote a while ago… Someone asked the question “How high can birds fly?” and Cecil responded by saying “On November 29, 1975 one was sucked into a jet engine 37,900 feet above the Ivory Coast in West Africa. The plane was damaged but landed safely. What the bird was doing up so high I have no idea, since this species is not migratory.” He also said that another bird was sucked into a plane engine. My question is: If these planes are moving at hundreds of miles an hour, and the bird is pretty much vaporized by the jet engines…how the hell did they know what kind of bird it was that got sucked in??? ---
**Author:** ![peepthis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9d8465/32.png) [@peepthis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peepthis)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270/2 "2002-11-18T05:00:42Z")
Welcome aboard, **lawrinson**! It was a Staff Report, not a Cecil column: [How high can birds and bees fly?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbirdbees.html) And that’s a really good question. ---
**Author:** ![Berkut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a88e57/32.png) [@Berkut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Berkut)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270/3 "2002-11-18T05:04:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lawrinson911 \* > \*\*My question is: If these planes are moving at hundreds of miles an hour, and the bird is pretty much vaporized by the jet engines…how the hell did they know what kind of bird it was that got sucked in??? \*\* I imagine all it would take for a positive ID would be a feather or two. Not likely that there would be NO evidence left, if it was big enough to do damage. Knowing the FAA, it wouldn’t surprise me if they found a bit of shredded airworthiness certificate or aircraft registration in the bird wreckage. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270/4 "2002-11-18T07:14:48Z")
They traced the tail number… [sub]yeah, I know - groannnn 🙂 [/sub] ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270/5 "2002-11-18T09:19:39Z")
- - - Or maybe they just got a look at it before it went in. ~ ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270/6 "2002-11-18T09:22:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DougC \* > \*\*- - - Or maybe they just got a look at it before it went in. > ~ \*\* At that speed? Would it be possible? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270/7 "2002-11-18T17:14:00Z")
I worked at a defense contractor for airborne radar systems once upon a time. Now picture this… we’re all sitting around a conference table discussing waveguide failures on fighter jet radars when some bigwhig in a suit (a very expensive suit I might add) picks up one of the waveguides and says “what is all this material right here?” to which one of us lowly engineers replies “bird guts.” The rather distressed look on his face and the speed at which he quickly placed the waveguide back on the table were priceless. There was enough of a feather embedded in the goo that someone who knew bird feathers could have easily made an identification of the type of bird, and this was after the bird went through the nose cone of the plane and through the radar antenna. There was nothing else really identifiable. If it wasn’t for the feather we probably wouldn’t have known it was a bird. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270/8 "2002-11-18T18:54:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lawrinson911 \* > **In regards to a column Cecil wrote a while ago…** It’s nice to be mistaken for The Master, but that was me, at least the bird part. > [@](#): > > \*\*My question is: If these planes are moving at hundreds of miles an hour, and the bird is pretty much vaporized by the jet engines…how the hell did they know what kind of bird it was that got sucked in??? \*\* Well, they’re generally not completely vaporized, although they may be pretty well shredded. But usually there are enough scraps, especially feathers, to make a diagnosis. [This article](http://www.sptimes.com/28-seconds/roxie1.html) explains how birds can often be identified from a single feather. Roxie Laybourne, of the Smithsonian Institution’s National Museum of Natural History, is the world authority on bird feathers and is often consulted on such cases. I believe people are now working on using DNA analysis for identification too. SD Staff George Straight Dope Science Advisory Board Curator of Birds ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270/9 "2002-11-18T19:26:51Z")
And in straight and level flight, what the sicentiest say is the speed limit of various birds and what a lot of pilots can attest to the speed of various bids are two different things. But of course pilots are like UFO abductees, not real reliable ya know. Bwhahahahah _:::: and of couse most now know to never say anything.:::_ ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270/10 "2002-11-18T21:15:31Z")
So what’s the smallest, uh, Unit Of Bird (aviette?) you need to make an identification? A whole feather? Just a piece? One of the individual spines or whatever they’re called? Does it matter if it’s a wingtip feather or down? Part of the foot? The crop, the tongue, etc.? I guess I’m wondering how much variation there is even in the “standard” bird structures. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270/11 "2002-11-18T21:21:42Z")
Since this is a comment on a Staff Report, I’ll move this thread to Comments on Staff Reports. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270/12 "2002-11-18T21:49:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cervaise \* > \*\*So what’s the smallest, uh, Unit Of Bird (aviette?) you need to make an identification? A whole feather? Just a piece? One of the individual spines or whatever they’re called? Does it matter if it’s a wingtip feather or down? Part of the foot? The crop, the tongue, etc.? I guess I’m wondering how much variation there is even in the “standard” bird structures. \*\* It really depends on the species of bird. Certain kinds of birds have unique structures to their feathers; e.g. owls have soft edges to their flight feathers so they can fly quietly. Some species have unique patterns or colors, or unique structures to the tongue, foot, etc, that would permit identification. [This article](http://www.sptimes.com/28-seconds/roxie1.html) has more detailed information. As the previous article I linked to mentioned, Roxie Laybourne sometimes can identify a bird from a single down feather. From the article I linked to here: > [@](#): > > The second technique has been developed on the basis of earlier work in taxonomy (Chandler 1916) and in the identification remains of prey in the droppings of predators (Day 1966). These workers studied the small downy barbules at the basis of contour feathers with a microscope. At the Smithsonian Institution in Washington DC, Roxy Laybourne (Laybourne 1974, see also Laybourne et al. 1992) pioneered in using these microscopical characters to identify tiny bird remains, collected after birdstrikes and being sent to her by the American Air Force. Her work laid the foundation of an entire school of scientists developing these methods for routine identification of birdhits. . . . The essence is that the downy barbules consist of a regular sequence of nodes and internodes. The nodes may be strongly or weakly developed, thickened, triangular or bell-shaped. In many species they show nodal structures, such as prongs, lobes or rings. These characters of the nodes combined with the size of the barbules, the pigmentation and the distribution along the barbules constitute a complex of features suitable for identification. In all passerine birds (perching birds) and a few other groups, the basal cell of the barbule carries outgrowths, termed ‘villi’ by Chandler (1916), that at once put the specimen among these groups, narrowing down the area of further search. ---
**Author:** ![BZ00000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/47e85d/32.png) [@BZ00000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BZ00000)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270/13 "2002-11-18T23:00:30Z")
Could the bird be identified by DNA? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270/14 "2002-11-18T23:40:56Z")
Sorry, the link in my previous post should have been [this one](http://www.int-birdstrike.com/proceedingspdf/Wattel.pdf). > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BZ00000 \* > \*\*Could the bird be identified by DNA? \*\* Potentially, yes. As the article mentions, this is increasingly being investigated. However, limitations are the cost, and the need for an extensive reference collection of DNA samples for comparison. The article also mentions that the keratin that makes up the feathers can be biochemically analyzed to make an ID. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-high-can-they-fly/137270/15 "2002-11-19T01:10:03Z")
Thank you! Very informative.