# How I Convinced My Teacher To Let Me Sit During The Pledge: Now More Than Ever **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 18, 2001, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054 "2001-11-18T10:08:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mercutio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Mercutio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mercutio)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2001, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/21 "2001-11-18T22:05:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by 23skidoo \* > \*\*Mercutio: I understand your points about not wanting to “pledge your allegiance to the flag”, both in your heart and with your words. What is your objection to standing when others are reciting the pledge, though? \*\* I don’t believe in the words being said around me and I wish to take no part as others pledge to an icon such as the flag. It is within my rights to sit down and I choose to. Like I said in my letter, would you object being forced to go to church everyday if you were an athiest? And to whoever asked me if I ever thought about enlisting, the answer is yes. I doubt I ever will. Enlisting would be my last ditch effort to try to pay for my college education. And even then, it would be a completely different situation. I don’t have to sign my life away for every 4 years to go to school. School is mandatory, enlisting isn’t. I have thought of it and the answer in my head is no. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2001, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/22 "2001-11-18T22:18:48Z")
**Merc** , would you care to write something for which you _would_ stand and recite? I don’t really have a problem with your choice. I hope the other kids don’t give you any shit for it. Or this teacher, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Rmat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85e7bf/32.png) [@Rmat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rmat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2001, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/23 "2001-11-18T22:50:00Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Mercutio \* \*\* > [@](#): > > I don’t believe in the words being said around me and I wish to take no part as others pledge to an icon such as the flag. \*\* You don’t believe that America is currently living up to the pledge’s description, or you don’t believe that description is a worthy aspiration for any nation? ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2001, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/24 "2001-11-18T23:24:58Z")
Quite frankly, you have every right to sit during the Pledge; however, would it kill you to stand silently, perhaps in recognition of the immense sacrifices that have been required to give you this freedom? I’d be interested in seeing a pledge that you **would** stand for (as was suggested earlier in this thread). Again, feel free to exercise your freedoms but you should always keep in mind, and have respect for, the people that sacrificed to give you them. ---
**Author:** ![Mercutio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Mercutio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mercutio)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2001, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/25 "2001-11-18T23:39:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wabbit \* > \*\*would it kill you to stand silently, perhaps in recognition of the immense sacrifices that have been required to give you this freedom? > > \ > > Again, feel free to exercise your freedoms but you should always keep in mind, and have respect for, the people that sacrificed to give you them. \*\* Would it kill you to let me excersize my freedom? Would I be respecting those who died for my rights more if I exercized them or if I allowed someone to take them from me? ---
**Author:** ![Mercutio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Mercutio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mercutio)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2001, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/26 "2001-11-18T23:54:19Z")
Also, do you believe that standing for the flag is the only way a person can show respect for those who have laid down their lives for us? ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/27 "2001-11-19T00:08:01Z")
Not at all–now tell me how you **are** respecting them. ---
**Author:** ![Mercutio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Mercutio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mercutio)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/28 "2001-11-19T00:12:32Z")
Simple. I excersize the rights they died for. I’ve been saying this from the beggining. ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/29 "2001-11-19T00:28:34Z")
So let me get this straight (and not being a smartass here–just making sure I’ve got your position down correctly): By **not** pledging allegiance to the flag and/or the country that it represents, you are showing respect for the people that have fought and died for the before-mentioned flag/country? ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/30 "2001-11-19T00:44:27Z")
[minor nitpick]It’s spelled **exercise**.[/minor nitpick] Merc, I think what you did was an extremely courageous act amidst the almost sheeplike iconography that we’ve shown as of late. It’s always been my feeling that no one should be forced to participate in another’s patriotism, religion, politics, or anything else. In fact, this reminds me of an episode that happened when I was a sophomore in high school. One year, one of the gym teachers put up a Christmas display in the hallway leading to the girls’ locker room. Several non-Christian students asked that the display be taken down, or changed to include other religions celebrating holidays at that time. The teacher told us that she would not. We then went up the chain of command, first to the vice principal, who told us he would not take action. Finally, when we got to the principal, several of us had put together a case that was so convincing that he had no choice but to order that the display come down. That several parents had gotten involved helped, but our research into the constitutionality of public religious displays made a big difference. We went from being perceived as a group of whiners to being perceived as organized and ready to fight if necessary. And guess what? The display came down. I am proud to say I was in that group of students. Good work, Merc. The US needs people like you. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Mercutio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Mercutio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mercutio)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/31 "2001-11-19T00:52:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wabbit \* > \*\*So let me get this straight (and not being a smartass here–just making sure I’ve got your position down correctly): By **not** pledging allegiance to the flag and/or the country that it represents, you are showing respect for the people that have fought and died for the before-mentioned flag/country? \*\* I hardly see how anyone died for a flag. You are correct to say that they died for their country and I’d like to believe that they also died for the rights their country is based on. They died so people all across their country could have those rights. In exercising those rights, I am doing exactly what those who died wanted me to do. I can see no greater sign of respect than that. ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/32 "2001-11-19T01:14:36Z")
Hmm–ok, I’ve got a better handle on what you’re saying now. Can’t honestly say that I’d show my respect in the same way you do, but I think the good old U.S. of A. is big enough for our two viewpoints to co-exist. Now I’m off to sing ‘Gawd Bless the U.S.A.’ in the shower… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/33 "2001-11-19T01:40:06Z")
Gee, hate to urinate on the curb during the victory parade, but you say yourself it is what this country stands for that allows you to not stand for the pledge unmolested. In some countries, it would get you jailed, or worse. So, as individuals like you and flag-burners defiantly point out that you are protected in your activities by the liberties afforded you in the United States of America, it’s my opinion that maybe you should treasure those liberties a little more than you do, and examine your priorities when it comes to expressing your denigration of, or indifference to, them. Of course you have the right to not stand during the pledge. Flag-burners also have the right to burn the flag. That doesn’t, however, make it the principled stance to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Mercutio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Mercutio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mercutio)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/34 "2001-11-19T01:47:56Z")
There’s quite a difference between sitting down during the pledge and burning a flag. I don’t try to take something that others hold close to them and then try to trample on it just because I can. To compare a quiet personal action that comes from my deep rooted beliefs to a loud action which only purpose is to rile people up is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Mercutio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/51bf81/32.png) [@Mercutio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mercutio)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/35 "2001-11-19T02:21:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PizzOFF! \* > **Certainly you have the right to do this, but I frown upon the probable agenda you have for doing it, which I think is (1) to one-up the teacher and draw attention to yourself and (2) to try to be a big man on campus. I fear that your given reasons are a shallow excuse.** If this were the case, I would have pleaded in front of the whole class. The fact that I chose to write a letter to the teacher and made a note in the letter that I rather had this be a personal matter between the two of us, rather than bring the whole class, disproves both your assumptions. > [@](#): > > \*\*In these times of all times, it would be wisest to give in with the flow of the crowd and at least stand for the POA, even if you choose not to recite it. \*\* Wisest according to who? My beliefs do not change to fit in with the crowd. The great thing about this country is that I don’t have to do exactly that. > [@](#): > > \*\*You are, however, acting at the expected maturity range of your age group, which is why the US does not allow anyone in that group to legally drink nor vote. \*\* Beg Pardon? This is both a cheap shot and weak argument. I think the way I went about it all is quite mature. I implore you to elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/36 "2001-11-19T02:39:41Z")
I agree with **Mercutio** , I think that he did go about the whole thing in a rather mature manner. I would advise him against making an issue out of every little thing, but to pick his battles a bit more carefully…but if the POA thing is really important to him, then whatever floats your boat. I am curious, though, **Mercutio** , what is your response to **Rmat’s** vision of the POA as a statement of aspiration, rather than fact? Would it change your attitude if scene in that light? ---
**Author:** ![Rmat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85e7bf/32.png) [@Rmat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rmat)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/37 "2001-11-19T02:43:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mercutio \* > \*\* > In exercising my rights, I am doing exactly what those who died wanted me to do. I can see no greater sign of respect than that. \*\* Let me get this right: You live in country that permits you to be disrespectful, so by being disrespectful you are paying tribute to the country? Inasmuch as you appear to be a thoughtful person, I’d suggest you give this a little more thought: Does your act truly pay tribute to the right you are exercising or does your conduct trivialize that right? I also note that you have not responded to my earlier question. Let me repeat: Originally posted by Mercutio ## quote: ## I don’t believe in the words being said around me and I wish to take no part as others pledge to an icon such as the flag. You don’t believe that America is currently living up to the pledge’s description, or you don’t believe that description is a worthy aspiration for any nation? As I have suggested, I suspect it is the former not the latter, in which case I would think you would WANT to recite the pledge, and that you might even encourage your fellow citizens to do likewise. ---
**Author:** ![Kaje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f04885/32.png) [@Kaje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaje)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/38 "2001-11-19T02:51:27Z")
Ah high school… those were the days… back when being oppressed by “the man” meant taking off your hat in class. I too raised issues with the required pledge and anthem, albeit not with as much vigor or eloquence. Thing was, I only did it because I could. I realized, as you have, that the people making the rules were mostly ignorant fools and got a kick out of harassing them. Was it uncalled for? I don’t think so, since they all seemed quite smug in their ignorance, which warrants some kind of action, but that still doesn’t make me any less of a dickhead or any more a “freedom fighter”. Do your thing… You would regret it if you didn’t take these stands while the payoff was immediate and the punishment minimal. I personally wish I’d done more than I did. However, it’s pretty easy for most people to see through the veil of unconventional patriotism and regard for civil rights. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/39 "2001-11-19T02:52:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mercutio \* > \*\* > > What’s my question for a debate? I don’t know, it just seems to end up in one. I suppose it can be that exercizing my rights, even in the face of mass opposition, is being a true patriot. \*\* I don’t see how the teacher making you stand during the pledge, or for any other reason, would be a violation of your rights. If they were making you salute or say the pledge then I think you’d have a case that they were violating your rights. It isn’t a violation of your 1st amendment rights when a teacher punishes you for speaking out of turn. Your right to freedom of assemble is not violated when they forbid groups of students from congregating in the restrooms. Your freedom of association is not violated when they do not schedule you in the same classes as your friends. Marc ---
**Author:** ![Doughboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@Doughboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughboy)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/40 "2001-11-19T02:55:06Z")
I’m still not sure why you would choose not to stand during the pledge. You’ve made it clear that you don’t take the pledge literally and neither do I, but it’s hard not to see sitting during the pledge as disrespectful to the flag, the country and the values it stands for. It sounds like you see your action as not disrespectful at all, but I find it hard see it that way and think many others agree with me. I see standing as simply a show of respect and don’t see why you would choose not to, implying disrespect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054.md?page=3)