# How I Convinced My Teacher To Let Me Sit During The Pledge: Now More Than Ever **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 18, 2001, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054 "2001-11-18T10:08:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 3\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2001, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/141 "2001-11-25T21:49:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bill H. \* > **Mercutio** , you’re clearly a sharp person and a good debator, but please don’t believe that your action in any way is a demonstration of patriotism as you seem to think. Seems to me that availing oneself of the liberties protected by the nation’s governing document is a pretty good start at patriotism. > [@](#): > > Webster defines a patriot as “one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests”, and the pledge is a declaration of loyalty to that authority. Neither Webster’s nor the Pledge of Allegiance appear in the Constitution. [qutoe]Our country gives extra rights to the disagree-er, [/quote] Absolutely incorrect. This nation recognizes the rights of all people. > [@](#): > > but don’t assume that this makes a disagree-er more patriotic than the agree-er. Oh, acting as an intelligent human being defending his rights instead of acting like the proverbial lemming certainly indicates a shade of patriotism not displayed by the lemming. > [@](#): > > Disagreeing because the majority is wrong and their direction must be changed is admirable. Correct. And the majority is wrong if it expects everyone to stand up and repeat an oath which is nothing more nor less than a religiously oriented (at present) litmus test to determine “good citizens” from “bad citizens.” > [@](#): > > Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing does not hold the same moral ground. And you have read Merc’s mind exactly how? How do you know that the reasons he has actually posted here are not the reasons why he took the action he took? > [@](#): > > Disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing is an action specifically taken to break cohesion and unity, and (in themselves) these are very distasteful goals. Oh, that’s the biggest bunch of malarkey to hit this thread yet. Merc never said that he disagreed just to disagree–you postulated that with no evidence than your apparent preconceptions. That you don’t like his stance does not make the stance invalid. There are, after all, rights protected by the Constitution. > [@](#): > > Bear in mind that this country also gives extra rights to criminals, but being a criminal doesn’t make you more patriotic. Incorrect on two counts: 1) The country recognizes the rights of all people. Criminals, being people, have rights. 2) Being a criminal does not necessarily mean one has no patriotism or a lesser degree of same than another person. > [@](#): > > In fairness, I should note that at your age I refused to make the pledge as well. Then, kindly try to separate the reasons YOU refused to recite the thing from the reasons Merc provided for why he refuses. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2001, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/142 "2001-11-25T22:54:32Z")
Oh, piffle, **Monty**. The exercize of a right is not automatically a sign of honoring that right. I would think that is ultimately clear. When I take advantage of a free defense lawyer I am not paying homage to the United States. I find that claim ridiculous. I am certainly willing to accept that **Merc** feels he is honoring the United States when he refuses to say the Pledge. I do not understand why he thinks so, I think he is simply exercizing a right, but he is under no obligation to develop the point, either. But simply asserting that exercizing rights makes one not a lemming like the rest of us stupid patriots is intellectual dishonesty. When I talk politics I am exercizing free speech, I am not honoring it. When I (used to) carry a gun I was exercizing my second amendment rights, I was not honoring them. Does that make any sense to you at all? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2001, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054/143 "2001-11-26T00:52:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > Oh, piffle, **Monty**. Oh, pshaw! > [@](#): > > The exercize of a right is not automatically a sign of honoring that right. I would think that is ultimately clear. Then you would think wrong. It most certainly is honouring that right _when someone, **such as the teacher in question** , is trying to take that right away_. > [@](#): > > When I take advantage of a free defense lawyer I am not paying homage to the United States. Where the dickens did I say “pay homage?” > [@](#): > > I find that claim ridiculous. Irrelevant because I never said “pay homage.” However, when you “take advantage of a free defense lawyer,” that is because you could not afford a pay-for defense lawyer and you therefore are expecting the government (you know, the people who provide you with the free defense lawyer) to honour your rights. > [@](#): > > I am certainly willing to accept that **Merc** feels he is honoring the United States when he refuses to say the Pledge. More important: he is expecting the government to honor HIS rights. > [@](#): > > I do not understand why he thinks so, I think he is simply exercizing a right, but he is under no obligation to develop the point, either. Then you have a very limited imagination. Expecting the government to honour the rights the government says it recognizes is most certainly giving the government credit for honesty. > [@](#): > > But simply asserting that exercizing rights makes one not a lemming like the rest of us stupid patriots is intellectual dishonesty. I am not “iintellecually dishonest.” Expecting someone to stand and recite a litmus test, even if it’s against that person’s belief, is the antithesis of patriotism. It is the antithesis of Liberty. When I talk politics I am exercizing free speech, I am not honoring it. When I (used to) carry a gun I was exercizing my second amendment rights, I was not honoring them. Does that make any sense to you at all? [/QUOTE] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-i-convinced-my-teacher-to-let-me-sit-during-the-pledge-now-more-than-ever/94054.md?page=7)