# How, if at all, does the WI results reflect future of union/Democratic political power? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 6, 2012, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252 "2012-06-06T06:42:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/1 "2012-06-06T06:42:26Z")
Yes, I know there’s a WI/Walker thread already, but it’s way long and its subject line became irrelevant to current events long ago. There are a lot of pundits out there analyzing tonight to _death_. Some say (some with great glee) that this heralds the death of unions (and thus of Democrats, for whom unions are a key, huge source of cash and organization), for any number of reasons: WI shows that unions are losing power (or else make it LOOK like they are, which in politics can quickly become reality); WI, a generally liberal state, shows other Republican governors that they can do what Walker did, and more, without consequence; WI shows that the voters don’t care enough about unions; WI shows that unions can’t compete against post-_Citizens United_ money; and on and on and on and ON… What does the Dope think of all this? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/2 "2012-06-06T09:17:29Z")
It’s all bad for the Dems. Just how, I don’t yet know. The only thing for sure is that the Dems and the unions will retain their ties, as neither has other options. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/3 "2012-06-06T11:07:26Z")
Through May 21 Walker outspent Barrett $45.6 million to $13.4. > **[Millions Spent on Wisconsin Recall Election](https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/06/04/us/politics/money-spent-on-wisconsin-recall-election.html?ref=politics)** > > Democratic and labor groups have been major players in the race, but Gov. Scott Walker has spent the most money, partly as a result of a state law that exempted him from contribution limits until the recall election was formally announced in March. Never again will anything else matter. The chances of reversing Citizens United are nil. It’s over. Corporations will protect that power. Democracy as we knew it is dead. Now it’s just a matter of competition between various corporations. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/4 "2012-06-06T12:02:01Z")
If Barrett had a more popular message, he would have drawn more money. Democracy is alive and well. Hopefully the progressive/occupy/liberal establishment is now dead, or at least on the ropes. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/5 "2012-06-06T12:11:53Z")
The problem with the recall was, Walker didn’t do anything wrong. He did exactly what he said he’d do. Plenty of people realized that, and (correctly) saw the recall as nothing more than an act of vengence by the unions. Michigan may be in a similar situation soon. Governor Snyder created a system of Emergency Financial Managers for cities and school systems that are going broke. Among other things, the EMFs can force renegotiation of union contracts. This has pissed off unions, who would have started a recall drive already if state law didn’t place restrictions on how soon you can start one. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/6 "2012-06-06T12:44:49Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Some say (some with great glee) that this heralds the death of unions (and thus of Democrats, for whom unions are a key, huge source of cash and organization) Those two things are not necessarily connected. It’s an extremely bad night for unions, especially the public-sector ones, which at this point are the strongest. Politicians of all parties are not going to be nearly as fearful of them as they have been in the past. But unions have been in steady decline for a half-century, and Democrats have not declined with them. Unions have been a huge _but steadily decreasing source_ of cash and organization; the Dems have simply found new ones, and will almost certainly continue to. (e.g. gay-rights supporters). As the relevance of unionized labor continues to wane, dems will (subtly, but clearly) be less and less beholden to them, and more willing to defy them. At this moment, Democratic governors in New York and Illinois are actively engaged in trying to get unions to give concessions, as are mayors in Dem-only cities like Providence and San Jose. The teacher’s unions are the strongest in the country … and the Obama administration is gradually embracing the school-reform agenda, as is pretty much every democratic politician under the age of 50. Unions were a 19th century solution to a 19th century problem. By mid-21st century, they will be about as important an issue nationally as Freemasonry is now. The Democratic party will almost certainly be just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/7 "2012-06-06T14:13:09Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > If Barrett had a more popular message, he would have drawn more money. Democracy is alive and well. Hopefully the progressive/occupy/liberal establishment is now dead, or at least on the ropes. Without re-hashing many discussions had here already, the majority of the wealth is with a minority of the people. It’s not accurate to say that popularity would have lead to more money. Campaign funding can be a reasonable metric for popular appeal only if all the people have roughly the same amount of money to donate. That said, I think **Diceman** is on the right track. I admit to not being completely up on everything that’s been happening in Michigan, but I never really understood what Walker did ‘wrong’, and why there was an expectation that he’d get voted out in a recall. After all, didn’t he do what he was elected to do? ---
**Author:** ![2ManyTacos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/3da27b/32.png) [@2ManyTacos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2ManyTacos)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/8 "2012-06-06T14:41:50Z")
Keep in mind that this post is coming from a guy who is solidly Democrat and liberal as Hell… No, I don’t buy into this whole far-left outcry that the Wisconsin results signal the “end of the Democratic party and the death knell of the progressive movement.” Seriously, if anything, the fact that Walker won his recall election only says that labor unions are less influential than they have been in the past, and that the Democrats will consequently have to be less beholden to them. Now, the huge windfall of cash that has been coming into the Republicans is certainly problematic _on the surface,_ but the bottom line (as I understand it, and there may even be data out there to back this up) is that enormous financial advantages yield only superficial results at the voting polls, and any tangible benefit of swaying public opinion a given way due to money probably only happens after you’ve reached a certain threshold anyway. Scott Walker may or may not have done that; who knows. There will always be stupid voters and people who will vote for politicians that _actively undermine their own best interests,_ but genuinely those individuals will be a minority. If money could buy elections so easily, then Meg Whitman would be my CA governor now, and Carly Fiorina would have won her Congressional bid. In the face of being outspent by Republicans, the Democratic party won’t be going anywhere; it’ll just adapt to that new environment and find different sources of revenue. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/9 "2012-06-06T15:18:07Z")
I don’t really see what the big deal is. He won the election in the first place, some folks tried to recall him, and he won again. Seems to me it just puts us exactly where we were 2 years ago. And still, he’s in the elite club of governors that have been subjected to recall, so that’s nothing to brag about. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/10 "2012-06-06T15:36:24Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > If Barrett had a more popular message, he would have drawn more money. By more popular you mean more popular with those people who have millions of dollars to invest in campaigns in the hopes of recouping those millions in legislation slanted in their favor, who are the only ones who count. ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/11 "2012-06-06T15:41:28Z")
I think this guarantees Wisconsin will vote Obama in November. Nothing like a really pissed off party to get people highly motivated and come out in droves for the next election. This looks like a clear case of losing a battle, but will win the war. My guess is many other states will use Wisconsin as a battle cry and use that to motivate other Democrats who might have become somewhat complacent. Democrats losing this recall election in Wisconsin might have been the best thing to happen to their party this year…sometimes a splash of cold water and a dose of reality is all that is needed to rally the troops again. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/12 "2012-06-06T15:45:35Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > By more popular you mean more popular with those people who have millions of dollars to invest in campaigns in the hopes of recouping those millions in legislation slanted in their favor, who are the only ones who count. There are plenty of liberal millionaires. Bill Maher gave a million bucks to Obama’s Super PAC. Apparently Barrett’s message didn’t resonate with Maher and others of his political bent and means. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/13 "2012-06-06T15:51:01Z")
According to a Wisconsinite chum of mine on another board… this recall was over the second Barrett got the nomination. Russ Feingold was the guy he was hoping would step up, but he refused, and the ones that did, Barrett included, were empty suits. This is probably why this recall was ignored, especially money-wise, by the DNC. I know, I know, Monday-morning quarterbacking… ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/14 "2012-06-06T15:52:21Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > There are plenty of liberal millionaires. Bill Maher gave a million bucks to Obama’s Super PAC. Apparently Barrett’s message didn’t resonate with Maher and others of his political bent and means. There are far more conservative billionaires, however. You’re not being honest if you think that major corporate donors won’t skew towards the side that wants to cut their taxes and regulations. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/15 "2012-06-06T15:52:46Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > How, if at all, does the WI results reflect future of union/Democratic political power? > > There are a lot of pundits out there analyzing tonight to _death_… > > WI shows that unions can’t compete against post-_Citizens United_ money; and on and on and on and ON… The SCOTUS decision concerning the Citizens United case said that Congress screwed up when they WROTE some of the Campaign Fianance Reform bill. Congress always has the option to re-write campaign fianance rules and regulations. The SCOTUS didn’t say Congress CAN’T regulate how campaigns are financed, they said that “some” of what Congress did pass was un-constitutional. The “government” unions were using union dues to campaign for and elect representitives who would then use their position to pass laws that increased the influence of “government” unions. Salaries were increased, pensions were increased, sweatheart deals that favored companies and organizations owned by “government” unions were made. All at the taxpayers expense. The Wisconsin taxpayer has recently begun electing representatives that would put an end to this round-robin of buddy-buddy influence. The taxpayers voted against the SSDD politics in the recalls, the Wis Supreme Court election, the 2010 election. “Government” unions have lost a great deal of influence with the Wis legislature and when “government” union members were given the chance to either belong to a “government” union or not, some 40% left the "government union. The taxpayers have spoken. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/16 "2012-06-06T15:59:44Z")
If the exit poll is to be believed, this result was less about unions than it was about distaste for recall elections. 60% felt that recalls should only be held in cases of official misconduct, and I can’t say I disagree with that position. In defense of those who sought the recall, unless I’m mistaken I don’t believe they had the option of challenging the union legislation by ballot initiative as they did in Ohio, so they tried to make do with the means that were available. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/17 "2012-06-06T15:59:59Z")
> [@CaptMurdock](#): > > According to a Wisconsinite chum of mine on another board… this recall was over the second Barrett got the nomination. Russ Feingold was the guy he was hoping would step up, but he refused, and the ones that did, Barrett included, were empty suits. This is probably why this recall was ignored, especially money-wise, by the DNC. > > I know, I know, Monday-morning quarterbacking… Another option for the lack of enthusiasm of any political party to back recalls of elected representatives is that once “we the people” get a taste for recalling incompetent, silly, stupid, criminal politicians, where will it stop? Will “we the taxpayer” stop at only recalling the “other” party or will recalls become the norm for all parties candidates? just sayin’ ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/18 "2012-06-06T16:00:06Z")
I don’t think it says much about the future of union/Democratic power. Many Wisconsinites didn’t think the recall was legitimate in that it should be reserved for misconduct and the like. A significant number of Obama supporters and union members voted for Walker. They needed a better candidate than someone that Walker already beat. In 2014 with another candidate and a conventional election may yield a different story. ---
**Author:** ![satoridt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@satoridt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/satoridt)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/19 "2012-06-06T16:06:50Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/20 "2012-06-06T16:13:42Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > By more popular you mean more popular with those people who have millions of dollars to invest in campaigns in the hopes of recouping those millions in legislation slanted in their favor, who are the only ones who count. One million people voted for Barrett. If they each gave $30 to Barrett, he’d have outspent “the corporations” that backed Walker (and still would have lost, IMO). But $30 is way better spent on a dinner and a movie than on a boring politician. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252.md?page=2)