# How, if at all, does the WI results reflect future of union/Democratic political power? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 6, 2012, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252 "2012-06-06T06:42:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/21 "2012-06-06T16:15:38Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > I think this guarantees Wisconsin will vote Obama in November. > Nothing like a really pissed off party to get people highly motivated and come out in droves for the next election. > This looks like a clear case of losing a battle, but will win the war. > > My guess is many other states will use Wisconsin as a battle cry and use that to motivate other Democrats who might have become somewhat complacent. > > Democrats losing this recall election in Wisconsin might have been the best thing to happen to their party this year…sometimes a splash of cold water and a dose of reality is all that is needed to rally the troops again. “Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!” ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/22 "2012-06-06T16:37:18Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You’re not being honest if you think that major corporate donors won’t skew towards the side that wants to cut their taxes and regulations. Corporate donors tend to skew towards the side that is most likely to win. See the top Obama and McCain 2008 [corporate donor](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/09/top-corporate-donors-in-2008-presidential-race) list. Next, look up “crony capitalism” for a better explanation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/23 "2012-06-06T16:37:37Z")
> [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > Through May 21 Walker outspent Barrett $45.6 million to $13.4. > > [Millions Spent on Wisconsin Recall Election - Graphic - NYTimes.com](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/06/04/us/politics/money-spent-on-wisconsin-recall-election.html?ref=politics) > > Never again will anything else matter. > > The chances of reversing Citizens United are nil. It’s over. Corporations will protect that power. Democracy as we knew it is dead. > > Now it’s just a matter of competition between various corporations. [There’s a way out.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=653227) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/24 "2012-06-06T16:42:57Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Corporate donors tend to skew towards the side that is most likely to win. No cite handy, but I’ve read that sometimes they give to **both** sides, so the winner will owe them no matter who it is. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/25 "2012-06-06T17:01:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No cite handy, but I’ve read that sometimes they give to **both** sides, so the winner will owe them no matter who it is. I’ve seen that too. Here are two links that are informative: > **[Tax-dodging CEOs gave big to both parties](https://www.salon.com/2011/09/02/ceos_taxes_political_donations/)** > > Highly-compensated leaders at companies that pay little in taxes have been extremely generous to politicians [http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2010/11/democrats-and-republicans-sharing-b.html](http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2010/11/democrats-and-republicans-sharing-b.html) ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/26 "2012-06-06T17:19:06Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > Corporate donors tend to skew towards the side that is most likely to win. See the top Obama and McCain 2008 [corporate donor](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/09/top-corporate-donors-in-2008-presidential-race) list. Next, look up “crony capitalism” for a better explanation. Wait … you mean large corporations are amoral, convictionless entities looking to co-opt whomever is power regardless of political platform, in order use regulation as a means to squash competition? I am shocked and saddened. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/27 "2012-06-06T17:22:32Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > I think this guarantees Wisconsin will vote Obama in November. > Nothing like a really pissed off party to get people highly motivated and come out in droves for the next election. > This looks like a clear case of losing a battle, but will win the war. I see it another way. I think a lot of those “pissed off” people are fairly pissed that Obama didn’t show up to support the recall…offering only a tweet in support. Those folks may not be so motivated to pull the lever for a President that is more concerned with saving face than looking out for his base. > [@DMark](#): > > My guess is many other states will use Wisconsin as a battle cry and use that to motivate other Democrats who might have become somewhat complacent. > > Democrats losing this recall election in Wisconsin might have been the best thing to happen to their party this year…sometimes a splash of cold water and a dose of reality is all that is needed to rally the troops again. I see this another way also. I think it could embolden Republican AND Democratic governors, mayors, etc. to play hardball with public unions and drag them back to the bargaining table with a little less fear. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/28 "2012-06-06T17:32:45Z")
They aren’t looking to “drag them back to the bargaining table”. They are looking to eliminate them from the bargaining table. Then, they can negotiate with themselves, struggle mightily, and reach an amicable agreement with themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/29 "2012-06-06T17:44:43Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > There are far more conservative billionaires, however. Really? Far more conservative billionaires than liberal millionaires? I’d like a cite for that assertion, please. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/30 "2012-06-06T17:47:02Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Really? Far more conservative billionaires than liberal millionaires? I’d like a cite for that assertion, please. There are far more conservative billionaires than liberal billionaires. I understand the tendency to try to grasp at trivialities when failing utterly at your arguments. But, c’mon. Let’s try and keep this at varsity level. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/31 "2012-06-06T17:51:14Z")
> [@yorick73](#): > > I’ve seen that too. Here are two links that are informative: > > [http://www.salon.com/2011/09/02/ceos\_taxes\_political\_donations/](http://www.salon.com/2011/09/02/ceos_taxes_political_donations/) > > [http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2010/11/democrats-and-republicans-sharing-b.html](http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2010/11/democrats-and-republicans-sharing-b.html) You’re missing the obvious. This is post Citizens United. All powerful corporations make less money than they would because of regulations. I think that’s a fair statement. Now they are able to pour as much money as they want into a Super-PAC and try to manipulate elections. One reason before CU they bet on both, is the bets were by necessity, small. Now, they can literally try to overwhelm the other-guy’s message with dollars. And as to why they’d skew Republican? Because the side that wants to slash taxes and cut regulations is the side that will make them the most profitable. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/32 "2012-06-06T17:53:57Z")
> [@](#): > > …There are far more conservative billionaires than liberal billionaires. It happens. Sometimes a man achieves his life’s goal of amassing wealth and then wonders why he spent the best years of his life doing it. Sometimes he resolves to do good in the world. Bill Gates, for instance, and his campaign to help eradicate malaria. I’ve taken back almost all the things I said about him, over the years. Except for Microsoft Bob. As a general rule, though, only rats win rat races. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/33 "2012-06-06T17:55:08Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > There are far more conservative billionaires, however. > > You’re not being honest if you think that major corporate donors won’t skew towards the side that wants to cut their taxes and regulations. JPMorgan Chase head honcho [Jamie Dimon](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-s-goodman/jamie-dimon-derivatives-f_b_1509631.html), who just oversaw his company’s recent $2B derivative trading loss, was an Obama campaign contributor. Larry Summers, an Obama advisor, was influential in blocking regulation concerning derivatives trading. I’m not Saying Romney wouldn’t cast an even blinder eye towards the problem, but Obama’s not exactly playing hardball with some guys who are “too big to fail”. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/34 "2012-06-06T17:58:13Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Yes, I know there’s a WI/Walker thread already, but it’s way long and its subject line became irrelevant to current events long ago. > > There are a lot of pundits out there analyzing tonight to _death_. Some say (some with great glee) that this heralds the death of unions (and thus of Democrats, for whom unions are a key, huge source of cash and organization), for any number of reasons: WI shows that unions are losing power (or else make it LOOK like they are, which in politics can quickly become reality); WI, a generally liberal state, shows other Republican governors that they can do what Walker did, and more, without consequence; WI shows that the voters don’t care enough about unions; WI shows that unions can’t compete against post-_Citizens United_ money; and on and on and on and ON… > > What does the Dope think of all this? I think the result is bad for public-sector unions and good for the Democratic Party. As the size and power of these unions declines, they’ll no longer be able rule the Democratic Party with a rod of iron, and thus the Democratic Party will no longer have to forks over ever larger chunks of taxpayer money to the unions. The Democratic Party will then be able to take a sensible approach to government finances at the state and local level. They’ll be able to pay for things that ordinary people want and perhaps even cut taxes. This will make the Democratic Party more popular and successful. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/35 "2012-06-06T18:03:10Z")
> [@](#): > > …but Obama’s not exactly playing hardball with some guys who are “too big to fail”. Obama’s training is in law, not finance. If my president doesn’t know the ins and outs of quantum mechanics, I expect him to consult experts, not wing it and improvise. And part of the trouble is that the only experts in the field are beholden to it. And another part is that if something is too big to fail, its too big. But that doesn’t mean you can take drastic action. And, of course, Obama is largely a Clintonista centrist. Radical thought, radical action give him the willies. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/36 "2012-06-06T18:05:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > It happens. Sometimes a man achieves his life’s goal of amassing wealth and then wonders why he spent the best years of his life doing it. Sometimes he resolves to do good in the world. Bill Gates, for instance, and his campaign to help eradicate malaria. I’ve taken back almost all the things I said about him, over the years. Except for Microsoft Bob. > > As a general rule, though, only rats win rat races. You act like one must choose between doing good and making money. In reality, someone who has amassed a fortune has done good, as evidenced by the fortune (with exceptions for Madoff, lottery winners, heirs, and other such folks who make up only a tiny minority of wealthy people) . ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/37 "2012-06-06T18:21:44Z")
Like I said in an earlier thread, this is a blip and its effects will quickly deteriorate. Political pundits are paid to over-analyze this stuff. Wisconsin is its own state, I live in California, the Wisconsin election will have zero impact here. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/38 "2012-06-06T18:25:39Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You act like one must choose between doing good and making money. In reality, someone who has amassed a fortune has done good, as evidenced by the fortune (with exceptions for Madoff, lottery winners, heirs, and other such folks who make up only a tiny minority of wealthy people) . There are legal ways to make money which do not “do good,” which is not a concept defined by meeting market demand. Some companies make money by selling cigarettes. Some people make money just by acquiring real estate and sitting on it until it appreciates in value or somebody wants to build on it. Speculation of any kind does little good. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/39 "2012-06-06T18:59:32Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > There are legal ways to make money which do not “do good,” which is not a concept defined by meeting market demand. Some companies make money by selling cigarettes. Some people make money just by acquiring real estate and sitting on it until it appreciates in value or somebody wants to build on it. Speculation of any kind does little good. Nope. Making money is de factor evidence that value was provided to someone. Providing value to people qualifies as doing good IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252/40 "2012-06-06T19:03:01Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nope. Making money is de factor evidence that value was provided to someone. Providing value to people qualifies as doing good IMHO. Well, that’s true, but then you are ignoring the fact that a third party may be affected and those costs may not be fully incorporated. For example, you could give me $10,000 to kill your arch-enemy, Liberal Tree-hugger Bizarro Rand Rover. Value may be provided to you, but not so much to your arch-enemy. Value =/= good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-if-at-all-does-the-wi-results-reflect-future-of-union-democratic-political-power/624252.md?page=3)