# How important are abortion rights? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2010, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017 "2010-11-09T10:52:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/301 "2010-11-11T13:33:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not moving the goalposts at all. You claimed there was no significant difference between shed blood cells and fetus. I pointed out one significant difference. But that’s only one. There are others. > > But let me ask you, and all the others who claim to know the objective, scientific definition of a “person”, what is that definition? What is the objective moment when a person comes into being? Tell me what that moment is, and how you prove that it is objectively the moment of personhood, as opposed to any other moment. To me, it would be the moment when one can look at the object(so to speak) and say that is a whole human being, what a cute baby!! In early months of pregnancy it is hard to tell if it is a fish, monkey, or person. Very few women would want to carry a pregnancy 9 months then want to abort! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/302 "2010-11-11T13:41:45Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yes, you’ve made it abundantly clear in past threads that you couldn’t care less about whether an unborn baby suffers, and that you aren’t going to put your precious self out one iota for anything or anyone. It wasn’t my expectation that you would say otherwise. I just get tired of this specious “you can’t tell me what to do with my own body” meme. A baby is a separate entity, created by you and temporarily housed inside your body. Pro-lifers aren’t interested in what you do with your own body; they’re interested in is protecting the life and feelings of the individual being that you created through actions of your own. > > :rolleyes: Speaking for Diana, I would say, she is more worried about the baby suffering after it is born than before, looking to the fact that she may lose her life, or bring a child into the world for others to care for because she had either died or could not take care of the child financialy, physicially,or mentally! Would you be happy to make a sacrifice for yourself (and your family) by supporting the children she did have, by paying a good portion of your wages to support the child for life? ---
**Author:** ![nolonger\_lurking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/41988e/32.png) [@nolonger\_lurking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nolonger_lurking)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/303 "2010-11-11T13:55:55Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Killing someone to resolve a conflict is pretty aggressive and final for a solution wouldn’t you agree? Question is can we say aborting the unborn is killing someone? So, we do the thought experiment (read that again some of you before flying off the handle) and figure 10 seconds before birth the unborn is not different in its personhood than it is 10 seconds after birth and killing it after birth is deemed murder. > > And so from there you walk it back to find the (fuzzy) point at which you say the mother’s rights trump the unborn’s rights such that she can terminate the pregnancy. Are you saying that, because the law defines a newborn as a person, we must therefore agree that a newborn has all the important characteristics of personhood? I have been arguing that the things we think of as distinguishing between people and animals accrue gradually after birth (humans are born almost uniquely underdeveloped in the animal kingdom). Because I don’t want to draw a line that removes the rights of _anyone_ who may have the characteristics of personhood, I support _legal_ personhood beginning at birth. I have already “walked[ed] it back” and chosen a conservative point. If you think of fetal rights increasing smoothly from birth until they are 21 years of age, and the mother’s rights over the fetus/child/adult decreasing over the same period of time, I would show a sharp decrease in “mother’s rights” at the time of birth. After that point, the imbalance would still allow her to make medical and financial decisions for the child, but no longer allow her to kill (even by neglect) the child. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/304 "2010-11-11T14:01:00Z")
> [@nolonger\_lurking](#): > > I have already “walked[ed] it back” and chosen a conservative point. If you think of fetal rights increasing smoothly from birth until they are 21 years of age, and the mother’s rights over the fetus/child/adult decreasing over the same period of time, I would show a sharp decrease in “mother’s rights” at the time of birth. After that point, the imbalance would still allow her to make medical and financial decisions for the child, but no longer allow her to kill (even by neglect) the child. So, in your version, if a woman said “kill the baby, I don’t want it” 10 seconds before birth that’d be ok? Nevermind if no one would ever say that or that no doctor would ever do it. In theory you’d say that is fine? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/305 "2010-11-11T14:01:27Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I know a woman who was carrying conjoined twins, with one of them basically living off the other. She was told that when they were born she could have them separated and the parasitic twin would die. > > The healthy twin died when she was 6 1/2 months. The doctor said she could carry to term, but the alive twin would die shortly after birth. She chose to have an abortion and try again. > > Today she has a healthy son and daughter. If I may add to that: there have been people who have had a twin growing in parts of the other twin’s body, some had 2 mouths etc. I saw this on TV several years ago. Now I would ask, Was that two person’s or one? ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/306 "2010-11-11T14:13:55Z")
Reproductive freedoms including the right to end a pregnancy are very important to me. As a woman, a mother, a doctor- being pro-choice is vitally important to me. I firmly believe women cannot have the opportunities, education, financial freedoms, health and independence they deserve if they are not in control of their fertility. Part of that means supporting the right of a woman to choose an abortion if she believes that continuing the pregnancy is not in her best interests…for whatever reason. I, unlike most of you, have spent a significant amount of time talking to people about their reproductive options, and have been involved at several points in the abortion journey (journey isn’t quite the right term, but " abortion process" sounds more… clinical and narrow than what I actually mean). I arrive at my current position because it is based on what I see in daily life, not hypotheses. I make decisions I feel are ethical and right, and I believe that my pro-choice position is part of that approach. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/307 "2010-11-11T14:17:22Z")
Why is it that the anti-abortion crowd paints abortion as totally negative and adoption as totally positive. I’ve actually heard them say “EVERY woman regrets an abortion; NO woman regrets giving a baby up for adoption.” I’d like to know how mothers of murdered adoptive children feel about that. The day the anti-abortion crowd starts calling itself anti-abortion, stops harassing women and picketing clinics, starts putting all its energies into getting Roe v. Wade overturned, stops murdering doctors, and starts presenting the negative side of adoption, starts supporting single person and gay/lesbian adoption, stops using the terms “pro-asbortion” and “abortionists,” and starts promoting more effective typeso f birth control, I’ll start taking them seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/308 "2010-11-11T14:34:07Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Why is it that the anti-abortion crowd paints abortion as totally negative and adoption as totally positive. I’ve actually heard them say “EVERY woman regrets an abortion; NO woman regrets giving a baby up for adoption.” I’d like to know how mothers of murdered adoptive children feel about that. > > The day the anti-abortion crowd starts calling itself anti-abortion, stops harassing women and picketing clinics, starts putting all its energies into getting Roe v. Wade overturned, stops murdering doctors, and starts presenting the negative side of adoption, starts supporting single person and gay/lesbian adoption, stops using the terms “pro-asbortion” and “abortionists,” and starts promoting more effective typeso f birth control, I’ll start taking them seriously. There are lots of good arguments on each side of this issue. It is remarkable how people on each side pass up the good arguments to scream at each other. It is remarkable how many pro-life people are all screwed up about birth control and sex in general. But then again, it is remarkable that pro-choice people are perfectly willing to follow their beliefs until they gat to the point upstream where people are arguing an infant need not have any rights. Everyone ought to calm down. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/309 "2010-11-11T14:46:52Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Oh, excuse me. > > When we start deciding people with no brains are not worth letting live, we can then easily decide that it is unwise to allow the halt to live, then we can make the small jump to eliminating the retarded. From there we can see the logic that those who produce little should not be a burden on the rest of us. Soon we start to consider the tax advantages we would have if Granny were to drop dead before 31 December rather than after it. > > I would point you to the strange turn the discussion took about the legitimacy of killing some infants. > > Protecting all human life, and even potential human life, seems like a reasonable starting point. I am willing to compromise, but the point I start from is everyone deserves the protection of society. > > Of course such a position cannot be defended in every case we see in the world, but it seems to me to make the most sense to start from this point. So a country that has no abortion restrictions would tend to slide toward infanticide and mandatory euthanasia of the retarded and elderly? Is that a legitimate summary of your concerns? > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Sorry my posting schedule does not line up with your convenience. > > See my answer in post #230. That wasn’t an answer to my questions, but a response to RitterSport’s sarcasm about my questions, which I gather you find it easier to dismiss. I would, too, in your position. > [@](#): > > Clearly there are women who would abort late term by choice (not medical necessity) out there. How many? I have no clue. How many are ok? > > I would like to think no doctor would perform an elective, late term abortion if it were legal but if it were legal can you say there is no one seedy enough to perform the service for some amount of money? There are plenty of examples of doctors doing terrible things in the past so while most wouldn’t I also would not be surprised if some did. > > But all that is really here nor there because I have stated repeatedly in this thread that my talking on the late late term abortion is part of a thought experiment to determine where a line may be discerned between the mother’s rights and the unborn’s rights. Well, let’s assume that in a country with no abortion restrictions, late-term abortions are legal and could in theory occur. Is that a deal-breaker in and of itself, or are there negative spin-off effects we should watch for? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/310 "2010-11-11T14:52:51Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So, in your version, if a woman said “kill the baby, I don’t want it” 10 seconds before birth that’d be ok? > > Nevermind if no one would ever say that or that no doctor would ever do it. In theory you’d say that is fine? Actually, in the painful throes of labour, it wouldn’t shock me at all for a woman to make all kinds of demands that her on-the-cusp child be killed… her husband…herself… everyone in the operating room… I’m prepared to trust the ethics of medical professionals to, at moments like this, ignore their patient’s expressed wishes. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/311 "2010-11-11T14:59:02Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So a country that has no abortion restrictions would tend to slide toward infanticide and mandatory euthanasia of the retarded and elderly? Is that a legitimate summary of your concerns? Yes, the danger that unconcern over the unborn would lead to a coursing of society and a devaluing of human life. I cannot prove such a thing would happen, but I fear it might. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/312 "2010-11-11T15:10:02Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Yes, the danger that unconcern over the unborn would lead to a coursing of society and a devaluing of human life. I cannot prove such a thing would happen, but I fear it might. If I were to name a not-insignificant westernized liberal democracy that has had no abortion restrictions for the last 20 years and has _not_ experienced an increase in infanticide or declared it legal to euthanize the retarded or elderly, and where the abortion rate in recent years has actually shown a downward trend, would this affect your concerns? It represents a strong real-world counter-example. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/313 "2010-11-11T15:10:24Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > Reproductive freedoms including the right to end a pregnancy are very important to me. As a woman, a mother, a doctor- being pro-choice is vitally important to me. > > **I firmly believe women cannot have the opportunities, education, financial freedoms, health and independence they deserve if they are not in control of their fertility.** > Part of that means supporting the right of a woman to choose an abortion if she believes that continuing the pregnancy is not in her best interests…for whatever reason. > > I, unlike most of you, have spent a significant amount of time talking to people about their reproductive options, and have been involved at several points in the abortion journey (journey isn’t quite the right term, but " abortion process" sounds more… clinical and narrow than what I actually mean). > > I arrive at my current position because it is based on what I see in daily life, not hypotheses. I make decisions I feel are ethical and right, and I believe that my pro-choice position is part of that approach. Bolding mine. This, in other words, means you are ok with abortion as birth control, right? Because women \*are \*in control of their own fertility, regardless of abortion rights. I’m really kind of a fence-sitter on abortion. In general I think abortion robs the potential for life from an innocent being. I get the “a fetus is not a human” argument. But the potential is there. To me, it just seems wrong. Especially when it’s used as a mere substitution for birth control. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/314 "2010-11-11T15:46:45Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > That wasn’t an answer to my questions, but a response to RitterSport’s sarcasm about my questions, which I gather you find it easier to dismiss. I would, too, in your position. > > Well, let’s assume that in a country with no abortion restrictions, late-term abortions are legal and could in theory occur. Is that a deal-breaker in and of itself, or are there negative spin-off effects we should watch for? Yet more evasion. I asked a question, you dodged it. My answer in #230 addresses your question even if it was not in direct response to your quote. The question I am exploring is whether the unborn has any rights whatsoever and when those rights accrue to it? In particular that must fundamental of rights which is a right to life. Would you be content for one of your most basic and fundamental rights to rest on the hope that others will act morally towards you? I have seen examples of women coming in seeking an abortion when in their 8th month. Not a lot but it happens. How many would you be ok with? Again to be clear to the rabid, frothing crowd, I absolutely support a woman’s right to an abortion early in the pregnancy. 100% on that. I am exploring where, if ever, you think the unborn does gain rights of its own that then need to be considered in comparison to the mother’s rights. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/315 "2010-11-11T15:49:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If I were to name a not-insignificant westernized liberal democracy that has had no abortion restrictions for the last 20 years and has _not_ experienced an increase in infanticide or declared it legal to euthanize the retarded or elderly, and where the abortion rate in recent years has actually shown a downward trend, would this affect your concerns? It represents a strong real-world counter-example. Please proceed; you might just have me. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/316 "2010-11-11T16:08:52Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Please proceed; you might just have me. Guessing he means Australia. Here is a list of abortion laws around the world. [http://www.pregnantpause.org/lex/world02.htm](http://www.pregnantpause.org/lex/world02.htm) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/317 "2010-11-11T16:19:50Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Bolding mine. This, in other words, means you are ok with abortion as birth control, right? Because women \*are \*in control of their own fertility, regardless of abortion rights. > I’m really kind of a fence-sitter on abortion. In general I think abortion robs the potential for life from an innocent being. I get the “a fetus is not a human” argument. But the potential is there. To me, it just seems wrong. Especially when it’s used as a mere substitution for birth control. Nebulous “potential” is a stupid basis for law. Even ignoring the somewhat silly “kid could be the next Ed Gein” counterargument. FTR, I’m OK with abortion as birth control. I’m also OK with late-term abortions. Hell, sometimes, I think I’d be cool with a reasonable term of permitted infanticide. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/318 "2010-11-11T16:22:08Z")
Australia has a long history of judging people based on their worth. Even when I was a kid, they had a ‘White Australia’ policy. In even more modern times, they adopted Aboriginal babies so they could be raised in White families. Let us not forget their mistreatment of British children displaced there during the war. Better to live in a world where every life is valued than one where the value of every life is measured. ---
**Author:** ![nolonger\_lurking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/41988e/32.png) [@nolonger\_lurking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nolonger_lurking)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/319 "2010-11-11T16:23:36Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So, in your version, if a woman said “kill the baby, I don’t want it” 10 seconds before birth that’d be ok? > > Nevermind if no one would ever say that or that no doctor would ever do it. In theory you’d say that is fine? Legally, yes. Morally, I might or might not be OK with it depending on the reasoning- for example, the destruction of a brain-dead fetus. While I would not generally be OK with the abortion of a healthy fetus immediately before birth, I do not view it as murder. Instinctively, I would place it morally somewhere between painlessly killing a healthy animal without cause (which I believe is wrong) and abusing a person. I am definitely _not fine_ with it, but I believe that legally, we have to set that aside or risk an intrusion into the woman’s privacy and autonomy that significantly outweighs my qualms about the life/value of the fetus. Keep in mind that this fetus either faces immense hardship from medical or environmental conditions, or is the child of a mother you believe is a monster or insane. Let me be as clear as possible, I denounce and reject killing babies, including newborns. I personally reject killing healthy late-stage fetuses, but feel that criminalizing or even denouncing even late-term abortion has negative effects that far outweigh the one-in-a-million 9th-month convenience abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/320 "2010-11-11T16:23:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > … I think I’d be cool with a reasonable term of permitted infanticide. Yikes! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017.md?page=17)