# How important are abortion rights? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2010, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017 "2010-11-09T10:52:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/401 "2010-11-12T16:23:03Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > It sounds like you’re arguing that even if robbing the potential for life is not so great, it’s ok because of the abhorrent treatment of women in the past. I don’t know what specific past treatment of women you refer to, but I’d agree that sexism was a big problem. I’m just not sure what that’s got to do with abortion issues today. Is that really want it sounds like to you? Is it possible you were listening wrong? The ability for a woman to have control over her own body and her own reproductive rights are a relatively new concept for humans. One which many still aren’t willing to accept. So instead, they try to come up with some other way to subjugate them. Right now that method is to claim their lives and rights are less important than everyone else’s. That they are uniquely required to provide rights for someone else. A condition that exists in no other form. No one can force you to provide life for someone else. But you think you can force a woman to. It sounds like you want to continue treating women the way we have in the past, and deny her the fundamental rights we grant everyone else. If you’re not sure which specific treatment I’m referring to I’m not sure what you propose to contribute to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/402 "2010-11-12T16:35:41Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > If you are arguing the potential for life, then O’Donnell is correct., masturbation is wrong because you are wasting the potential for life. The Pythonesque “every sperm is sacred” comes to the fore, because sperm is a potential for life. Can you justify wasting it? > The abortion argument seems to have no agreeable beginning and a dissatisfying end. > Nobody is pro abortion. They are pro choice. It is not my right to make a life decision for you, regardless of how strongly I believe. My belief does not trump your right to make life changing and important decisions that will affect your family possibly is severe and powerful ways. The best I can do is stay out of your way. It is your life. Certainly, one can (hopefully) easily see the difference between sperm and a fetus. Sperm left on its own will not form into a human. Similarly, an egg left on its own will not form a human. Sperm and eggs don’t need to be actively killed in order to prevent the formation of life. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/403 "2010-11-12T16:41:28Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Sperm and eggs don’t need to be actively killed in order to prevent the formation of life. Could you rephrase this? I mean, a number of common contraceptives have “spermicidal” in their names or descriptions. Clearly the intent is to indeed actively kill sperm cells to prevent the formation of life. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/404 "2010-11-12T16:41:34Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Certainly, one can (hopefully) easily see the difference between sperm and a fetus. Sperm left on its own will not form into a human. Similarly, an egg left on its own will not form a human. Sperm and eggs don’t need to be actively killed in order to prevent the formation of life. An interesting comparison. A fetus left on its own, how well will it do? A premie left on its own, how will it do? A person suffering kidney failure, left on their own, how well will they do? All of these require intervention to survive. None of these force action on someone else. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/405 "2010-11-12T16:45:19Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Where is this coming from? I haven’t read the entire thread, but I haven’t seen anyone invoking god as the giver of morality. It is the only thing he has, so he posts it. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/406 "2010-11-12T16:56:38Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > It is the only thing he has, so he posts it. It brought humour to a thread that now involves comparisons to the Holocaust. What have you brought other than a warning to be very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, cautious? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/407 "2010-11-12T17:18:21Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > Certainly, one can (hopefully) easily see the difference between sperm and a fetus. Sperm left on its own will not form into a human. Similarly, an egg left on its own will not form a human. Sperm and eggs don’t need to be actively killed in order to prevent the formation of life. Not when the argument is “potential life”. Masturbation would be actively wasting and killing sperm, which might fertilize an egg and become life. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/408 "2010-11-12T17:21:29Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > My point, quite obviously, is that you are saying that I should be legally compelled to use my organs to keep this thing alive, providing it with a ‘right’ that no other being on this earth has. Not even my own children, the ones I chose to carry to term and give birth to. There is absolutely no justification for that. > > You’re the one who keeps insisting that there’s no difference between a term fetus on the inside or the outside. Perhaps you’d care to take a stab at explaining why I’m suddenly NOT obliged to support it with my own organs once it’s outside, regardless of need. :dubious: > > Um, no. I’m seeking to get it out, and whatever harm that comes to it in the process of getting it out is incidental. > > My goal is not to hurt a fetus, it is to not be pregnant. > > I don’t think I can really explain this any more clearly. The woman made a choice to carry the baby to term. She could have terminated early in the pregnancy if she wanted. Why do you think women are not responsible for their choices? If late in the pregnancy the woman wants it out of her she is either killing what is now a living being or she is threatening it with harm, possibly profound harm, by delivering a premature baby. I know of nothing in the law or morals that allows you to do something that would injure or kill someone else who has no part in your decision and, had they a voice, would certainly not welcome what is going to be done to them. But hey, it’s “incidental” death or injury so its ok right? Afterall the only thing that matters is that the woman not be inconvenienced any longer by a choice _she made_. So what if someone has to die to achieve that? Better still she refuses to take care of it so now this premature infant with serious medical needs becomes the problem of the state and thus MY problem as my tax dollars go to support the spawn the woman decided she didn’t want. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/409 "2010-11-12T17:29:36Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > It is the only thing he has, so he posts it. Am I the “he” in this statement? I’d like to know before proceeding. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/410 "2010-11-12T17:31:30Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The woman made a choice to carry the baby to term. She could have terminated early in the pregnancy if she wanted. > > **Why do you think women are not responsible for their choices?** > > If late in the pregnancy the woman wants it out of her she is either killing what is now a living being or she is threatening it with harm, possibly profound harm, by delivering a premature baby. > > **I know of nothing in the law or morals that allows you to do something that would injure or kill someone else who has no part in your decision** and, had they a voice, would certainly not welcome what is going to be done to them. But hey, it’s “incidental” death or injury so its ok right? Afterall the only thing that matters is that the woman not be inconvenienced any longer by a choice _she made_. So what if someone has to die to achieve that? > > Better still she refuses to take care of it so now this premature infant with serious medical needs becomes the problem of the state and thus MY problem as my tax dollars go to support the spawn the woman decided she didn’t want. (bolding mine) All of this has already been answered. Do you have anything new? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/411 "2010-11-12T17:34:38Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > (bolding mine) > > All of this has already been answered. Do you have anything new? Then I missed it and would say she did too. If it was answered she wouldn’t post that idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/412 "2010-11-12T17:36:20Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Then I missed it and would say she did too. If it was answered she wouldn’t post that idiocy. We’re on page 9. Is it too much trouble for you to read the thread you’re participating in? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/413 "2010-11-12T17:47:08Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I know of nothing in the law or morals that allows you to do something that would injure or kill someone else who has no part in your decision and, had they a voice, would certainly not welcome what is going to be done to them I know of nothing in the law or morals that allows anyone to use my organs without my consent, and you certainly haven’t offered any examples. > [@](#): > > But hey, it’s “incidental” death or injury so its ok right? Afterall the only thing that matters is that the woman not be inconvenienced any longer by a choice _she made_. So what if someone has to die to achieve that? It happens every day that I choose not to donate a lobe of liver. It also happens every day that you choose not to donate a lobe of liver. I can live with it, and clearly so can you. > [@](#): > > Better still she refuses to take care of it so now this premature infant with serious medical needs becomes the problem of the state and thus MY problem as my tax dollars go to support the spawn the woman decided she didn’t want. And the right to life suddenly becomes problematic when it inconveniences you. Duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/414 "2010-11-12T17:53:07Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The woman made a choice to carry the baby to term. **She could have terminated early in the pregnancy if she wanted.** … This, too, has been [answered](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13127250&postcount=220). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/415 "2010-11-12T18:06:53Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I know of nothing in the law or morals that allows anyone to use my organs without my consent, and you certainly haven’t offered any examples. The woman gave consent when she decided to carry to term. That then leads to a human relying on that support which you see fit to revoke for any reason whatsoever resulting in death or injury of the other person. > [@](#): > > It happens every day that I choose not to donate a lobe of liver. It also happens every day that you choose not to donate a lobe of liver. I can live with it, and clearly so can you. Not donating a liver is refusing help. More apt would be you donating a lobe of liver then some months down the road deciding you want it back and killing the recipient to get it back. The recipient has zero say in the matter. How DARE they use your organ that you originally chose to give! > [@](#): > > And the right to life suddenly becomes problematic when it inconveniences you. Duly noted. The problem is the woman has made a choice for me. One I have no say in. Since you seem fine with the woman making a choice for others then you should be fine having others making a choice for the woman. No? Uh oh…is that a double standard I see? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/416 "2010-11-12T18:09:12Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > This, too, has been [answered](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13127250&postcount=220). And replied to in #228 (not sure how to make that nifty link…I’d do that if I did). ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/417 "2010-11-12T18:12:25Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The woman gave consent when she decided to carry to term. That then leads to a human relying on that support which you see fit to revoke for any reason whatsoever resulting in death or injury of the other person. So people shouldn’t be allowed to back out of organ donations once they’ve signed the consent forms? It’s my organ, and I can withdraw consent at ANY time that it’s still inside my body. > [@](#): > > Not donating a liver is refusing help. > > More apt would be you donating a lobe of liver then some months down the road deciding you want it back and killing the recipient to get it back. The recipient has zero say in the matter. How DARE they use your organ that you originally chose to give! Nope. Once the liver is OUTSIDE of my body, it’s not mine anymore. Nice try, though. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/418 "2010-11-12T18:12:26Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The woman gave consent when she decided to carry to term. If that’s what you’re basing this on then the matter is settled. She may not have decided to carry to term, ergo she may not have given her consent. Either we give a woman control over her body and reproductive system or we don’t. A woman choosing to have an abortion is her exercising that right. As long as the fetus is inside her, the control is hers. There is nothing in the law or morals that grants rights to another person’s body, period. So I’ll ask again, do you have anything new to provide? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/419 "2010-11-12T18:14:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > And replied to in #228 (not sure how to make that nifty link…I’d do that if I did). You were told how to do that as well. ETA Post [228](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13127250&postcount=228) was my post in which I further answered all of your questions, 4 pages ago. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/420 "2010-11-12T18:25:13Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > Yep. I suspect our great grandchildren would be amazed their ancestors were so brutal. You mean the oppressors of women? Yes, definitely. I think they’ll consider most pro-lifers as bad as we do the shower operators at Auschwitz. I know I already do. Compare it to how the current youth views homosexuality. Yes, there’s still “that’s so gay” as a pejorative and religious-driven homophobia, but _in general_, this current generation of teens in the West is probably the last for whom this is going to be an issue of any enormity. The move is towards liberalization. So to will it be with abortion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017.md?page=22)