# How important are abortion rights? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2010, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017 "2010-11-09T10:52:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/41 "2010-11-09T15:48:54Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Then you approve of abortion in cases of rape? Obviously the other women, who willingly had sex, are sluts who got what they deserved. I’d love to see this justified. If it’s killing a “person”, and killing a “person” is OK if they are the product of rape, then why stop at birth? I should be able to kill anyone who was conceived during a rape no matter how old they are with no consequences, right? (not directed at you, just joining in the pile-on) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/42 "2010-11-09T15:52:11Z")
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**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/43 "2010-11-09T15:52:22Z")
Only if they are living inside your body. Hell, you can legally kill someone if they come into your house unannounced and are posing a real or implied threat to your general well being. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/44 "2010-11-09T15:59:19Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Only if they are living inside your body. Hell, you can legally kill someone if they come into your house unannounced and are posing a real or implied threat to your general well being. My favorite analogy was written by Judith Jarvis Thompson, “[A Defense of Abortion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion)”: > [@Wikipedia](#): > > _You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist’s circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. [If he is unplugged from you now, he will die; but] in nine months he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you.[4]_ [Thompson’s writing in italics] > > **Thomson takes it that you may now permissibly unplug yourself from the violinist even though this will cause his death: the right to life, Thomson says, does not entail the right to use another person’s body, and so by unplugging the violinist you do not violate his right to life but merely deprive him of something—the use of your body—to which he has no right.** [bolding mine] “\*f you do allow him to go on using your kidneys, this is a kindness on your part, and not something he can claim from you as his due.”[5] > > For the same reason, Thomson says, abortion does not violate the fetus’s right to life but merely deprives the fetus of something—the use of the pregnant woman’s body—to which it has no right. Thus, it is not that by terminating her pregnancy a woman violates her moral obligations, but rather that a woman who carries the fetus to term is a ‘Good Samaritan’ who goes beyond her obligations.[6] ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/45 "2010-11-09T16:02:51Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > So, leaving aside whether abortion is right or wrong - assuming it is a right, how important is it? Does it really matter that much? In the spirit of the OP, I’d still have to think of it as a relatively less important than a lot of other issues. Even if it is regarded as all but the most extreme version of evil that some will paint banning it as, it still only affects a relatively small number of people, where issues like education, economy, and standard of living, while relatively less serious, affect everyone. Personally, I don’t have such an extreme view about it, and while I think a blanket ban is bad, I think a straight ban does less overall harm to the population and freedom in general than a lot of other potential issues facing a nation. I think it comes up a lot in modern politics precisely because so many other major issues are “solved” and it’s the sort of issue that helps energize people into getting involved in politics, but at the same time isn’t likely to really progress far, so politicians who make pledges with regard to it, but inevitably fail to do so can continue to claim to have a strong stance about it without actually being held accountable. And it’s the same sort of issue, where the sides aren’t simply disagreeing on the answer, but they’re disagreeing on what the fundamental issue is, and as so, it’s easy to demonize opponents as hating freedom, hating women, hating live, being immoral, or whatever. Easily demonizing groups of people, like we see done with gays, muslims, immigrants, big business, etc. drives people to the polls. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/46 "2010-11-09T16:03:02Z")
There’s two ways of looking at the importance - the practical and the symbolic. The practical importance depends on the country, and the person impacted. The abortion ban in Ireland has always been of less practical effect than it could have been, because of the practice of travelling to Great Britain for an abortion. That’s not to say it has no practical impact, but it lessens it. The _de facto_ prohibitions in the United States, with many rural areas having no abortion provider anywhere near, have disporportionately impacted the poor. A state by state actual ban would impact the poor more, because they would have less opportunity to travel. It would also disproportionately impact those in more marginal situations already, such as abused wives, who might not be able to travel. When and where abortion is illegal, abortions still happen. They’re just easier for the wealthy to get than the poor. Now the symbolic effects of an abortion ban are more widespread. Banning abortion is placing into law the idea that a woman is less important than a collection of cells which exists only because of that woman. It is indicative of how women are treated in that society, and I find it hard to believe that attitude does not spill over into other areas. And in Ireland, I seem to recall abortion prohibition was put into the constitution - that sends a massive message about the importance of women. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/47 "2010-11-09T16:04:20Z")
Yeah, well, that’s what you get for listening to classical music. You know, you could have used earplugs and not heard the violins at all, then you wouldn’t be in this mess. Now, you’d better not unplug yourself – you’re only getting what you deserve. ETA: to Blalron ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/48 "2010-11-09T16:08:44Z")
I always find it very telling that many of the groups working to make sure I can’t have an abortion are the same groups trying to limit my birth control choices and refuse contraceptive education and access to teens who need it the most. You’d think if you don’t want women to have abortions you’d be all over birth control, if the motives of the pro-life movement were as they say they are. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/49 "2010-11-09T16:11:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It doesn’t have anything to be a person _with_. Defining it to be a person requires that you either be wildly inconsistent, or start declaring animals and vegetables “persons”. Defining a fetus as a person is inconsistent with the usage of the term in other contexts and of how the law normally defines “person”. Why is a brain dead body a legally dead thing we can harvest for organs, but a brainless lumps of cells a “person”? Answer: Because defining a fetus as a “person” has no other purpose than attempting to justify forbidding abortion, therefore it doesn’t have to make logical sense. A post is not a cite. If you don’t have a cite, your post is worthless. Further… A 6 month old fetus is not a “brainless lumps of cells”. In fact, brain cells appear quite early in fetal development. There is no one objectively true, scientific definition of what a “person” is. That is the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/50 "2010-11-09T16:12:50Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Then you approve of abortion in cases of rape? Obviously the other women, who willingly had sex, are sluts who got what they deserved. I don’t have strong feelings about abortion, and neither approve nor disapprove. But whether a woman is raped or has sex consensually, it doesn’t really make a difference biologically. The sperm and egg don’t care, so to speak. I don’t understand why you’re talking about things like “deserved”, or where I ever called anyone a slut or made any sort of moral judgment at all. It’s not a question of karma. Pregnancy’s not a punishment, and people don’t “deserve” to get pregnant or not. If sperm’s in the fallopian tube when the woman ovulates, there’s a chance that the sperm will fertilize the egg, and there’s a chance the fertilized egg will implant in the uterine wall. It’s biology. Deserve ain’t got nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/51 "2010-11-09T16:13:37Z")
> [@villa](#): > > There’s two ways of looking at the importance - the practical and the symbolic. > > The practical importance depends on the country, and the person impacted. The abortion ban in Ireland has always been of less practical effect than it could have been, because of the practice of travelling to Great Britain for an abortion. That’s not to say it has no practical impact, but it lessens it. > > The _de facto_ prohibitions in the United States, with many rural areas having no abortion provider anywhere near, have disporportionately impacted the poor. A state by state actual ban would impact the poor more, because they would have less opportunity to travel. It would also disproportionately impact those in more marginal situations already, such as abused wives, who might not be able to travel. > > When and where abortion is illegal, abortions still happen. They’re just easier for the wealthy to get than the poor. > > Now the symbolic effects of an abortion ban are more widespread. Banning abortion is placing into law the idea that a woman is less important than a collection of cells which exists only because of that woman. It is indicative of how women are treated in that society, and I find it hard to believe that attitude does not spill over into other areas. And in Ireland, I seem to recall abortion prohibition was put into the constitution - that sends a massive message about the importance of women. Good post, except for the last paragraph. Banning abortion would only imply the woman is less important than the fetus if pregnancy = death. We deal with trade off of rights all the time, and this is one of them. If we ban abortion at 8 months, are we saying that 8 month old fetuses are more important than women? No. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/52 "2010-11-09T16:20:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A post is not a cite. If you don’t have a cite, your post is worthless. > > Further… A 6 month old fetus is not a “brainless lumps of cells”. In fact, brain cells appear quite early in fetal development. There is no one objectively true, scientific definition of what a “person” is. That is the problem. But a zygote is “a brainless lump of cells” and something like the Morning After pill will expel the zygote before it gets much further (maybe it’ll make it to the blastocyst stage but that’s about it). Granted there is a gray area where “personhood” could be said to begin but I think it is safe to say at the edges the distinctions are clear (very early not a person, very late a person). ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/53 "2010-11-09T16:34:59Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > My favorite analogy was written by Judith Jarvis Thompson, “[A Defense of Abortion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion)”: I’m not sure it’s a great analogy though. For instance, I go to bed at night with zero expectation of waking up hooked up to someone else for use of my kidney. However, when one has sex, even when using birth control, any reasonable person understands that pregnancy is a risk. So, one could argue that there’s some implicit consent, as part of accepting that risk, that is missing from that analogy. Some might say it’s insignificant or meaningless, but I think this actually is a major sticking point for a lot of pro-life people. And to make it equivalent to the violinist analogy, the abortion scenario would be, to avoid rape complications, to wake up to find that someone had artificially inseminated a woman in her sleep. OTOH, there could be some expectation on the part of the involuntary donor for compensation, or that it could be negotiated for compensation. For example, one may be upset about the kidnapping aspect, but when you make it aware that you intend to disconnect him, on his behalf, perhaps through power of attorney or whatever, one could make an agreement for compensation for the violation. A fetus is utterly unable to do so. So, to make it equivalent again, there would have to be an absolutely solid “there will be absolutely no compensation” clause, and perhaps, rather than being a violinist (who, inherently has some value), to some random unknowable person, as any unborn child could grow up to be a violinist, but could also turn out to be perfectly average or even a bane on society. So, I get the point that it’s trying to illustrate, that the right to life does not entail the right to use someone else’s body without their consent, and I agree with that sentiment. The problem is, abortion isn’t that simple of an issue. Some see it as a very simple issue, but I think most people, regardless of what side they come down on, see it as a much more complicated one. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/54 "2010-11-09T16:41:51Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I’m not sure it’s a great analogy though. For instance, I go to bed at night with zero expectation of waking up hooked up to someone else for use of my kidney. However, when one has sex, even when using birth control, any reasonable person understands that pregnancy is a risk. So, one could argue that there’s some implicit consent, as part of accepting that risk, that is missing from that analogy… And, rape victims? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/55 "2010-11-09T16:47:30Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I’m not sure it’s a great analogy though. For instance, I go to bed at night with zero expectation of waking up hooked up to someone else for use of my kidney. However, when one has sex, even when using birth control, any reasonable person understands that pregnancy is a risk. So, one could argue that there’s some implicit consent, as part of accepting that risk, that is missing from that analogy. Some might say it’s insignificant or meaningless, but I think this actually is a major sticking point for a lot of pro-life people. We do all sorts of things that come with an implied risk. That does not mean if the undesired outcome of that risk comes to pass we don’t want to seek to undo it. Maybe you are doing carpentry work and manage to slice your finger off. It is a risk you accept when working with saws. That does not mean you just accept it and go on with life with no finger. Most people will pick up the finger and go to the hospital to see if it can be reattached. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/56 "2010-11-09T16:54:29Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > But a zygote is “a brainless lump of cells” and something like the Morning After pill will expel the zygote before it gets much further (maybe it’ll make it to the blastocyst stage but that’s about it). Agreed. > [@](#): > > Granted there is a gray area where “personhood” could be said to begin but I think it is safe to say at the edges the distinctions are clear (very early not a person, very late a person). No, because personhood is a legal, not a scientific term. It is based entirely on the moral assumptions you make, and that is not at all clear in this case. Now, I’ve made my moral decision based on certain assumption and have come up with a clear stance that abortion should be legal up to (or just before) viability outside the womb. But I can’t claim that my conclusion is objectively true, because they depend on the assumptions I have made. Other people, starting with other assumptions, will reach different conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/57 "2010-11-09T17:49:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Good post, except for the last paragraph. Banning abortion would only imply the woman is less important than the fetus if pregnancy = death. We deal with trade off of rights all the time, and this is one of them. > > If we ban abortion at 8 months, are we saying that 8 month old fetuses are more important than women? No. Which is why I don’t believe a country with a third trimester abortion ban, for example, is sending the same message as a country with a full abortion ban. I don’t necessarily support either, but when people talk of abortion bans, they tend to be talking about the latter - a complete restriction on abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/58 "2010-11-09T17:50:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, because personhood is a legal, not a scientific term. It is based entirely on the moral assumptions you make, and that is not at all clear in this case. I realize law makers can make a law say whatever they want it to but that does not make it so. They could pass a law declaring celery to be poisonous and ban its sale. We’d all have to abide by the celery ban but just because they deem celery poisonous does not make it poisonous. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/59 "2010-11-09T18:19:12Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I realize law makers can make a law say whatever they want it to but that does not make it so. They could pass a law declaring celery to be poisonous and ban its sale. We’d all have to abide by the celery ban but just because they deem celery poisonous does not make it poisonous. Bad analogy. We can determine, scientifically, the toxicity of celery to humans. We cannot determine, scientifically, when an embryo or fetus becomes a person. Yes, it is true that politicians could roll the dice to determine what a person is, but they don’t do that. There are principled arguments on both sides of this issue. Getting back to the OP, I would say that abortion rights are pretty high on the list for me. It’s very difficult to define a 3 month old fetus as a person (in the legal sense) without invoking some religious concepts, which I strongly favor keeping out of politics. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/60 "2010-11-09T19:17:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Bad analogy. We can determine, scientifically, the toxicity of celery to humans. We cannot determine, scientifically, when an embryo or fetus becomes a person. We can determine, scientifically, that a zygote has no differentiated cells, no nervous system, no brain, etc.. Without that consciousness of any sort is flatly impossible. Applying “personhood” to that small cluster of cells is an amazing stretch. May as well call it murder when you bleed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017.md?page=4)