# How important are abortion rights? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2010, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017 "2010-11-09T10:52:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/121 "2010-11-10T03:56:36Z")
No, I don’t and we don’t. Bye. ETA: You really shouldn’t completely change your posts using the edit function. Makes my answers not make sense. Anyway, I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/122 "2010-11-10T04:01:06Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, we’re not talking about a swallowed fly or a lightbulb somebody stuck up our ass (yeah, it happens. Ask any doctor. :D) We are talking about a living, feeling human being. And an innocent one at that, who had no say in its creation. Granted, having a light bulb up your ass or a baby in your womb is a distinction lost on some people, but they really aren’t the same. No, not really. The fetus doesn’t begin to do all of those things until after most abortions are performed. > [@](#): > > I’m doing nothing of the sort. The Supreme Court has ruled that women can get abortions, and frankly, assuming it’s done early enough so that the baby is most likely not sentient, I don’t have that much of a problem with it. I just get tired of this silly, militant nonsense of “they can’t tell me what to do with my own body”, which, as I said, is not what pro-lifers are out to accomplish. If you don’t have a problem with early abortions why are so you outraged? The anti-choice movement really is all about controlling women. It’s not about providing better birth control since most pro-life organizations are opposed to many forms of birth control. It’s not about helping women find safety nets as most pro-lifer pols are Republicans and they’re busy shredding such nets. > [@](#): > > As I just said to **LavenderBlue** , under the right circumstances I have no problem with abortion. I am fully aware, having gone through my former wife’s pregnancy and the birth of our daughter, what women are in for during pregnancy. And I’m not particularly in favor of babies being brought into the world and forced to live with people who never wanted them in the first place. My objection, once again, is with the meme that anyone who finds abortion objectionable and wants to halt it is trying to tell women what they can do with “their own bodies”, which IMO is not only inaccurate but deliberately and dishonestly combative. Combative is calling it murder or comparing the act to that of the Nazis. Combative is displaying pictures of dead fetuses. Combative is shooting doctors who perform abortions. You want combative? You need look no further than the anti-abortion movement. What’s deliberately dishonest is a movement that pretends that fetuses are incubated in a sterile environment with no cost to the woman involved. If you don’t find early abortions all that objectionable then what do you want? Many second trimester abortions are performed for the health of the mother. Do you really think you should get to substitute your judgement for that of a woman and her doctor? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/123 "2010-11-10T04:11:03Z")
I thought, based on the OP, that this would be a debate on the abortion law in Ireland, not the millionth thread on the abortion situation in the U.S. Now that would have been interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/124 "2010-11-10T04:12:21Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > If you don’t find early abortions all that objectionable then what do you want? You’re not going to let me out of here, are you? 😃 For the third or forth time, what I want is for people stop claiming that anti-abortionists want to tell women what to do with their own bodies. Their focus is on another body and most of them couldn’t care less what you do with your own. There are all sorts of laws telling people what they can’t do with their own bodies. You can’t use it to rob a bank, you can’t use it to write hot checks and you can’t use it to drive over someone with your car. And in every case I can think of, those laws exist to protect other people. It’s the same with anti-abortionists; they just don’t want you to be able to use your body to harm someone else. What is so difficult to understand about this? ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/125 "2010-11-10T04:14:29Z")
That the someone else is INSIDE MY BODY? This is not, I assure you, a trivial distinction. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/126 "2010-11-10T04:16:37Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You’re not going to let me out of here, are you? 😃 > > For the third or forth time, what I want is for people stop claiming that anti-abortionists want to tell women what to do with their own bodies. Their focus is on another body and most of them couldn’t care less what you do with your own. There are all sorts of laws telling people what they can’t do with their own bodies. You can’t use it to rob a bank, you can’t use it to write hot checks and you can’t use it to drive over someone with your car. And in every case I can think of, those laws exist to protect other people. It’s the same with anti-abortionists; they just don’t want you to be able to use your body to harm someone else. What is so difficult to understand about this? What’s so difficult to understand? That part where the fetus is allowed to use its body to harm the mother. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/127 "2010-11-10T04:17:28Z")
The smiley faces indicate you are not serious and need not be taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/128 "2010-11-10T04:18:07Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > I thought, based on the OP, that this would be a debate on the abortion law in Ireland, not the millionth thread on the abortion situation in the U.S. Now that would have been interesting. Well, the thread title says “How important are abortion rights?” Sometimes it happens that a thread will show up on the main page with the last post made by someone whose post you may be curious about. Then, if that post so moves you, you might offer your take on what that poster said. I know this because it’s what I just did. 😉 I haven’t read the OP, and again there’s nothing in the title to suggest anything about Irish abortion laws. Having said that, I’m going to take another stab at getting out of here. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/129 "2010-11-10T04:19:00Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > For the third or forth time, what I want is for people stop claiming that anti-abortionists want to tell women what to do with their own bodies. Their focus is on another body and most of them couldn’t care less what you do with your own. There are all sorts of laws telling people what they can’t do with their own bodies. You can’t use it to rob a bank, you can’t use it to write hot checks and you can’t use it to drive over someone with your car. And in every case I can think of, those laws exist to protect other people. It’s the same with anti-abortionists; they just don’t want you to be able to use your body to harm someone else. What is so difficult to understand about this? That’s doubly nonsense. First, because a fetus isn’t a person no matter how badly you want to pretend it is. And second, because the anti-abortionists have made it quite clear they care nothing for the fetus except as weapon to beat down women. These are the same people who wash their hands of all responsibility once the child they force into existence is born. Nor are they exactly known for their interest in promoting pre-natal care or in the welfare of mothers who can’t properly support their children. They just want to force women to bear children against their will, in order to _hurt_ them. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/130 "2010-11-10T04:19:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Having said that, I’m going to take another stab at getting out of here. Without having answered anyone’s questions in a meaningful way? How unusual. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/131 "2010-11-10T04:26:41Z")
Sorry, but I do have to leave. I have dinner to eat and Archie Goodwin is threatening to kick my ass if I don’t pay him some attention. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/132 "2010-11-10T04:43:08Z")
I don’t know who that is, but I’ll just assume he leaves you far too busy to ponder the question “how is a person INSIDE my body different from a person OUTSIDE my body?” Because clearly it’s an incredibly difficult question. Oh wait, it’s not. A person INSIDE my body has no right to be there. It depends on my goodwill, and nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/133 "2010-11-10T04:51:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’d like to see a cite for this, please. A real cite, with some hard figures. > > Regards, > Shodan [http://www.counterpunch.org/schulte01202006.html](http://www.counterpunch.org/schulte01202006.html) Here you go. It was part of our culture and always on the back of our minds. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/134 "2010-11-10T05:06:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > For the third or forth time, what I want is for people stop claiming that anti-abortionists want to tell women what to do with their own bodies. Their focus is on another body and most of them couldn’t care less what you do with your own. There are all sorts of laws telling people what they can’t do with their own bodies. You can’t use it to rob a bank, you can’t use it to write hot checks and you can’t use it to drive over someone with your car. And in every case I can think of, those laws exist to protect other people. It’s the same with anti-abortionists; they just don’t want you to be able to use your body to harm someone else. What is so difficult to understand about this? I mean no offense, but I don’t see how you can’t put your first and second-to-last sentences together and not get a contradiction. I don’t believe the claim is that anti-abortionists seek to utterly control what women do with their bodies. I have seen the claim that anti-abortionists seek to control what women do with their bodies in this specific situation out of a desire for control, rather than for the sake of the fetus, but in general terms only by **Der Trihs**. By and large, the general claim is that yes, it is accepted that anti-abortionists are primarily concerned with the fetus, and that as a result of their desire to protect it they seek to control what a women may do with her body in that specific situation. I would not be adverse to describing myself, as an anti-bank robber, as a person who wanted therefore to tell people what to do with their bodies. I feel no particular issue with calling anti-abortionists people who want therefore to tell people what to do with their bodies. It may be a side-effect of the actual causal desire, it may be a generalised point, but it is still an accurate one. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/135 "2010-11-10T05:10:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I’d like to see a cite for this, please. A real cite, with some hard figures. > > Regards, > Shodan [http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/1/gr060108.html](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/1/gr060108.html) There were 829,000 abortions in 1967 when they were illegal. Abortions don’t end with a law. With this economy, I am sure there will be an increase in abortions the next few years. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/136 "2010-11-10T05:39:18Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I won’t. It can pipe up and say that it’s got the solution to Fermat’s theorem, a cure for cancer, and incontrovertable proof of God, it still doesn’t get to use my uterus without my consent. I think maybe we should wait to debate this possibility after it happens. My point was assigning rights to something without a brain is absurd. Let’s not get into a “resolved: atheists are all wet if we know angels are running around” debate. In this universe fetuses don’t pipe up. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/137 "2010-11-10T05:40:38Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/1/gr060108.html](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/1/gr060108.html) There were 829,000 abortions in 1967 when they were illegal. Abortions don’t end with a law. With this economy, I am sure there will be an increase in abortions the next few years. Well, the U.S. population is significantly higher now than it was in 1967, so if absolute numbers of abortions increase, it could be for that reason alone. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/138 "2010-11-10T05:45:16Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > My point was assigning rights to something without a brain is absurd. Well, absurd or not, whatever rights the fetus has can be in conflict with the rights the mother has. I’m okay with her winning any potential conflicts. I’ve yet to see any reason why she shouldn’t, nor any practical way to force her to play along with a fetal win. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/139 "2010-11-10T06:51:52Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > And a flight to Britain can cost about €50 if you smart about it - less if you are willing to go further. > The cost difference between an abortion in Ireland and one in Britain wouldn’t be huge even if it was legal. Finding a €50 flight to Britain at short notice, and at the exact time you need to travel to fit your work schedule or whatever, can be extremely difficult. Plus the cost of accommodation, transport to and from the airport (at either end) and particularly _the cost of the abortion_. It’s not free to people who aren’t on the NHS (or even to people who are, if they’re from the Six Counties) and can cost over €1000 the later the abortion takes place. That’s prohibitive for a lot of women, especially these days. And of course there are women with immigration statuses that don’t allow them to come and go as they please. > [@](#): > > In fact, if it was legalised, I suspect many women would continue to go abroad to ensure that no-one found out about their actions. Plenty of women seek the services of abortion counselling in Ireland, so there’s no reason to think they wouldn’t seek actual abortions in Ireland. I think the real issue here is that if it was legalised there would still be problems finding providers - especially when so many “public” hospitals are still run by the Church. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2010, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017/140 "2010-11-10T06:53:29Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Don’t they have back alley abortions in Ireland? See the link in the OP. “Back alley” abortions these days are taking place via internet. Anecdotally, there is also evidence of immigrant communities using traditional herbal methods to induce abortion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-are-abortion-rights/560017.md?page=8)