# How important is it for all well-educated people to know and believe Theory of Evolution? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816 "2015-06-18T02:06:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/101 "2015-06-19T13:51:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Are you arguing that biology (or “Life Science”, for those on the slow track) should not be a required course? No. I’m thinking of some posters\* here, in threads past, who thought we could have some sort of “test of knowledge” for graduating HS, and that evolution would be part of it. I remember replying that even if we did that, the “evolution” part would be one small part of one subject, and couldn’t realistically be made to cause some to flunk out. \*I don’t want to imply that it was a common idea, but maybe one or two posters. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/102 "2015-06-19T14:11:05Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > JM: Do you have any comments on GIGObuster’s cites in post 12? . I think that if you really want to make knowledge of evolution seem more important than it actually is, you can do so. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/103 "2015-06-19T14:48:58Z")
The only reason this thread is 100+ posts long is because evolution is a politically important subject in the USA, which it isn’t in most modern countries. Objectively speaking, there is no reason evolution is more centrally important an understanding to anyone than, say, calculus, or microeconomics, or Shakespeare, or good cardiovascular training. Clearly a person is much more well rounded for knowing such things, and they are rather important if you intend to be a physicist, price analyst, English teacher or personal trainer. But you don’t NEED an understanding of any of them. Honestly, how many people do you know who really understand evolution? Knowing it’s a thing and that it is true isn’t really an understanding of it. I know many smart people who are not religious nuts who assume evolution is true but couldn’t really explain the mechanics of it, just as I am sure most of the people in this thread don’t know what “comparative advantage” is despite it being a centrally important concept in economics and something that should affect one’s perspective on matters of political importance. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/104 "2015-06-19T14:58:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think that if you really want to make knowledge of evolution seem more important than it actually is, you can do so. As I pointed before, what is going on in medicine agriculture and the environment is a **growing** realization that evolution is the way to go to make advances that were not considered before. When just about half of Americans do not think that evolution is real I think it is just more than just an opinion when one points out that many discoveries and advances are being missed thanks to the wilful ignorance of many. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/105 "2015-06-19T15:07:39Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As I pointed before, what is going on in medicine agriculture and the environment is a **growing** realization that evolution is the way to go to make advances that were not considered before. > > When just about half of Americans do not think that evolution is real I think it is just more than just an opinion when one points out that many discoveries and advances are being missed thanks to the wilful ignorance of many. Did you notice that your second cite was someone making fun of unscientific thinking by using anecdotes (instead of actual data)? We teach evolution in schools in the US. What else do you guys want? You can’t force kids to remember it when they’re older if it doesn’t have practical value to them. If it DID have practical value, then they probably would remember it. This is no different from the typical kid who takes 2 years of Spanish in HS, and 10 year later is lucky if he can remember anything other than "_como esta usted_? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/106 "2015-06-19T15:41:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Did you notice that your second cite was someone making fun of unscientific thinking by using anecdotes (instead of actual data)? And of course that was the most important cite. :rolleyes: > [@John\_Mace](#): > > We teach evolution in schools in the US. What else do you guys want? You can’t force kids to remember it when they’re older if it doesn’t have practical value to them. If it DID have practical value, then they probably would remember it. This is no different from the typical kid who takes 2 years of Spanish in HS, and 10 year later is lucky if he can remember anything other than "_como esta usted_? The practical value is for the group, nation or world. Sure, there will be many that will not have a use for it, but just as we can not predict who will be the next big biologist we can not predict also who will be next big politician with a wilful ignorance of science that does affect not only the well being of our democracy, but also to the well being of our economy in the long run. > **[Neil deGrasse Tyson on Science Literacy (Part Two) | Moyers & Company |...](https://billmoyers.com/episode/neil-degrasse-tyson-on-science-literacy/)** > > Bill talks with the astrophysicist about why science literacy is critical to the future of our democracy, economy and standing in the world. > [@](#): > > BILL MOYERS: All right. According to the Pew Research Center, back in 2009, a comfortable majority of Republicans accepted human evolution as a fact. But now, a plurality rejects it. So I ask you, politics can trump science, can’t it? > > NEIL DEGRASSE TYSON: Well, in a free, elected democracy, of course. You vote who you want on your school board. There is no provision in the constitution for the government to establish what’s taught in schools. That’s all relegated to the states. Hence, we speak state to state about what’s in their science textbook versus another. > > And so that’s the country we’ve all sort of bought into, if you will, or born into. I think it’s a self-correcting phenomenon. Nobody wants to die, okay? So we all care about health. But above all else, among the Republicans I know, especially Republicans, nobody wants to die poor, okay? > > So educated Republicans know the value of innovations in science and technology for the thriving of an economy and business and industry. They know this. If you put something that is not science in a science classroom, pass it off as science, then you are undermining an entire enterprise that was responsible for creating the wealth that we have come to take for granted in this country. So we’re already fading economically. If this, if that trend continues, some Republican is going to wake up and say, “Look guys, we got to split these two. We have to. Otherwise, we will doom ourselves to poverty.” And so I see it as a self-correcting, **I don’t know when it’ll happen** , but they know. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/107 "2015-06-19T15:45:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We teach evolution in schools in the US. What else do you guys want? 1. Don’t teach alternatives to evolution. 2. Don’t pander to anti-evolutionists in how evolution is taught (e.g. the OP’s re-wording of his test question). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/108 "2015-06-19T15:51:46Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > 1. Don’t teach alternatives to evolution. > 2. Don’t pander to anti-evolutionists in how evolution is taught (e.g. the OP’s re-wording of his test question). We don’t. OK, I’m sure we do in a few places, but we’re not supposed to. SCOTUS rulings have been clear on that. If you’re worried about private schools, well, not much we can do about that. ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/109 "2015-06-19T15:57:19Z")
In my state we have (had, I think still do) a “this is only a theory” note in the front of the science textbooks that was definitely intended to undermine the theory. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/110 "2015-06-19T16:01:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We don’t. OK, I’m sure we do in a few places, but we’re not supposed to. SCOTUS rulings have been clear on that. > > If you’re worried about private schools, well, not much we can do about that. That’s that, then-topic closed. Thank ghod there’s no effort on the other side to put creationism back into schools. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/111 "2015-06-19T16:13:12Z")
Additional info: Here’s what we got in textbooks in 1995 or 1996 (I was in highschool then, and thought it ridiculous): > [@](#): > > “This textbook discusses evolution, a controversial theory some scientists present as a scientific explanation for the origin of living things, such as plants, animals and humans. No one was present when life first appeared on Earth. Therefore, any statement about life’s origins should be considered a theory. The word evolution may refer to many types of change. Evolution describes changes that occur within a species. (White moths, for example, may evolve into gray moths.) This process is microevolution, which can be observed and described as fact. Evolution may also refer to the change of one living thing to another, such as reptiles into birds. This process, called macroevolution, has never been observed and should be considered a theory. Evolution also refers to the unproven belief that random, undirected forces produced a world of living things. There are many unanswered questions about the origin of life which are not mentioned in your textbook, including: Why did the major groups of animals suddenly appear in the fossil record, (known as the Cambrian Explosion)? Why have no new major groups of living things appeared in the fossil record in a long time? Why do major groups of plants and animals have no transitional forms in the fossil record? How did you and all living things come to possess such a complete and complex set of instructions for building a living body? Study hard and keep an open mind. Someday you may contribute to the theories of how living things appeared on Earth.” 2001 brought us this text, but I was out of school then, and don’t know if it was an addition or replacement > [@](#): > > The word “theory” has many meanings. Theories are defined as systematically organized knowledge, abstract reasoning, a speculative idea or plan, or a systematic statement of principles. Scientific theories are based on both observations of the natural world and assumptions about the natural world. They are always subject to change in view of new and confirmed observations. > > Many scientific theories have been developed over time. The value of scientific work is not only the development of theories but also what is learned from the development process. The Alabama Course of Study: Science includes many theories and studies of scientists’ work. The work of Copernicus, Newton, and Einstein, to name a few, has provided a basis of our knowledge of the world today. > > The theory of evolution by natural selection is a controversial theory that is included in this textbook. It is controversial because it states that natural selection provides the basis for the modern scientific explanation for the diversity of living things. Since natural selection has been observed to play a role in influencing small changes in a population, it is assumed that it produces large changes, even though this has not been directly observed. Because of its importance and implication, students should understand the nature of evolutionary theories. They should learn to make distinctions between the multiple meanings of evolution, to distinguish between observations and assumptions used to draw conclusions, and to wrestle with the unanswered questions and unresolved problems still faced by evolutionary theory. > > There are many unanswered questions about the origin of life.With the explosion of new scientific knowledge in biochemical and molecular biology and exciting new fossil discoveries, Alabama students may be among those who use their understanding and skills to contribute to knowledge and to answer many unanswered questions. Instructional materials associated with controversy should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered. I think there was a 2005 update, but can’t find the text. But some states will most definitely do whatever they can get away with in this arena. We still have a disclaimer. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/112 "2015-06-19T20:26:02Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > The theory of evolution clearly believes that traits that are more suitable for the environment survive and the traits that are not suitable fade away. New traits are random and evolution happens over \*\*LONG \*\*time periods. This is a fallacy of creationist bullshit. New traits are _not_ random. Chemical processes are not just a roiling mass of chaos, they proceed in a relatively orderly fashion. We are not even fully certain about how mutagenesis occurs, but it may be possible that environmental effects drive evolution more proactively than just waiting for the new model to appear and take over. The whole “random” thing is an attempt to belittle the origins idea on the basis of “_what are the chances?_”. It misrepresents what really happens. > [@Smartass](#): > > I’ve always liked the word “woo” and it pains me to see it picking up such a negative connotation. It was already there. “污” means “dirty” or “corrupt”. “惡” means “evil” (although its pronunciation varies, like “污”, it can be pronounce “_wu_” in both Mandarin and Cantonese). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/113 "2015-06-19T20:37:27Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **John Mace** : > > No. I’m thinking of some posters\* here, in threads past, who thought we could have some sort of “test of knowledge” for graduating HS, and that evolution would be part of it. I remember replying that even if we did that, the “evolution” part would be one small part of one subject, and couldn’t realistically be made to cause some to flunk out. Beg pardon? We already have those tests. Around here, it’s called the Ohio Graduation Test. I don’t know what it’s called in other states, but I’m sure you have an equivalent. And you can’t very well leave an entire broad subject, that takes up a full year for all students, off of that test. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/114 "2015-06-19T20:48:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Beg pardon? We already have those tests. Around here, it’s called the Ohio Graduation Test. I don’t know what it’s called in other states, but I’m sure you have an equivalent. And you can’t very well leave an entire broad subject, that takes up a full year for all students, off of that test. And if someone gets every question about evolution wrong, do they fail to graduate? The idea was to prevent people from graduating if they didn’t “accept” evolution. Point being that the “evolution” part of any broad-based test like that would be such a small fraction of the total that you could fail that whole part but still pass. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/115 "2015-06-19T22:14:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And if someone gets every question about evolution wrong, do they fail to graduate? The idea was to prevent people from graduating if they didn’t “accept” evolution. Point being that the “evolution” part of any broad-based test like that would be such a small fraction of the total that you could fail that whole part but still pass. Even if you don’t you just have to parrot back the “party line”. The hypnotized never lie. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/116 "2015-06-19T22:34:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > And if someone gets every question about evolution wrong, do they fail to graduate? The idea was to prevent people from graduating if they didn’t “accept” evolution. I’m not sure if anyone was actually making that particular point – I certainly was not. There is a much larger point that was made by myself and quite a few others, which is that scientific ignorance and a general kind of anti-science hostility has negative impacts on society and is especially dangerous in a democracy, where a generally informed public is key to sensible public policy, and where like-minded ignoramuses will be elected and will determine policy on many important issues, not just evolution, as I previously stated. It leads to the condition that was warned against in the cover story of _New Scientist_ a few years ago, with the headline “Unscientific America” and the subhead “Retreat into darkness”. Is this the kind of society anyone wants to live in? It affects public policy on a wide range of issues ranging from environment to many aspect of health care. Someone pointed out that there is some tiny minority of apparently educated biologists who claim disbelief in evolution. I know that there are also a few (not many, thankfully) with Ph.Ds in climate-related physical sciences who are climate contrarians if not outright denialists. I think the explanation of both is the same. There is no way that these people could possibly believe some of what they are spouting. In both cases I think we’re dealing with motivated hypocrisy and willful mendacity. The motivations may vary but interest in truth is never among them. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/117 "2015-06-19T22:51:28Z")
Considering its one of the most important things in biology and overlaps with a lot of other fields, I’d say its really important to understand the basis and believe it. Lack of those things create people like the current GOP, whose anti-science stance is slowly killing the Earth and mankind in general ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/118 "2015-06-19T23:22:04Z")
Drafting test questions so as to avoid alienating anti-evolution christians creates a false balance / false equivalence, which in turn strengthen’s the anti-evolutions christians’ belief rather than forcing them to face reality. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2015, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/119 "2015-06-19T23:48:47Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I’m not sure if anyone was actually making that particular point – I certainly was not. I was referencing a thread we had on a similar subject long before you joined. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2015, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816/120 "2015-06-20T00:06:12Z")
Even worse, the kind of crap that appears in some fundie-influenced textbooks that was quoted by **Tzigone** above is just absolutely appalling – wishy-washy pandering to fundie ignorance and managing at the same time to obfuscate the meaning of the word “theory” in science. And when the textbook itself fails to sufficiently pander to the fundies, some states have mandated stickers required to be affixed to the offending science textbook which makes the same sort of statement in even stronger terms. Although I suppose if a textbook is especially clear about the scientific understanding of evolution, a bit of ritual book-burning might be in order. I’m just glad I live in a place where evolution-denial is only ever heard as a form of hyperbolic insult to imply the alleged ignorance of one’s political opponents rather than being anything that any sane person actually believes… Politician “A”: If “B” really believes that, then the honorable member demonstrates about the same level of scientific understanding as creationists and evolution-deniers. Politician “B”: Mr. Speaker, I demand that “A” withdraw that vile insult! 😃 ETA: That was a reply to **Muffin**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-for-all-well-educated-people-to-know-and-believe-theory-of-evolution/722816.md?page=7)