# How important is it to visit Iraq before coming up with a strategy to deal with it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597 "2008-07-15T19:57:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Merkwurdigliebe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/74df32/32.png) [@Merkwurdigliebe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merkwurdigliebe)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/21 "2008-07-15T22:17:03Z")
It depends. If you do a parachute in thing like bush did when he brought in the turkey then no. On the other hand, maybe we’d have never gone to war had bush gone to Iraq first and talked face to face with Saddam. But we all know that Bush is too big of a pussy to do that. Ideally, it would be great to have the best information. That might not only be possible in Iraq, but I can guarantee you that the people with the best advice to give about Iraq are probably Iraqis themselves. Does McCain’s visit count? I don’t know. He had a brigade surrounding him with choppers overhead and wore a flak jacket. He then returned to say that things were fine. That’s not the case, I’m afraid. So apparently his visit didn’t do anything good for him. But Obama ought to go and seek out the clearest picture of the way things are. If he goes after he is President it will be more difficult to get a clear picture. I think McCain’s being a hypocrite though. According to McCain you have to go there in order to make a good judgement. It’s just bullshit. He’s going anyway. It seems to be a weird situation in Iraq right now. As much as Obama ran on an anti-war stance, Iraq is actually getting better now. I think that’s pretty clear. So he’ll have to re-evaluate. Obama’s stand made more sense a year ago, honestly. The second thing is that it appears that the Iraqis are taking a lot more initiative. This could be because they realize that under an Obama administration, they might have to take care of themselves sooner than they had hoped for. Thirdly it also appears that the Iraqis are going to ask us to leave pretty soon. It could be that our withdrawal timeline would end up being the same under McCain or Obama due to the Iraqis insistence that we leave. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/22 "2008-07-15T22:32:59Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] So, you don’t think it’s necessary for Obama to go to Iraq in order to formulate his strategy? Forget what McCain said or whether or not he’s a hypocrite. He could be a hypocrite and still be be right. [/QUOTE] Not necessary, no. As has been said, all he’ll get if he goes there is a dog and pony show. How useful is that? I never brought up the question of whether McCain is being hypocritical here. The point is that McCain’s early and enthusiastic support of the invasion is logically inconsistent with his current position regarding what someone ‘must do’ to formulate acceptable policy. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/23 "2008-07-15T22:44:03Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Not necessary, no. As has been said, all he’ll get if he goes there is a dog and pony show. How useful is that? [/quote] It’s been said by whom, and how do those people know? [Here’s a link quoting someone who does know (I used it in another thread today)](http://www.pbs.org/weta/washingtonweek/transcripts/transcript071108.html). Someone who has been to Iraq more than a dozen times: > [@](#): > > MS. RADDATZ: - refining, but the core of his plan - and I’m sure it attracted a lot of Democratic voters - is, I will start drawing down immediately, and will withdraw up to two combat brigades a month. That’s a whole lot of combat brigades. It’s a whole lot of people. It’s a whole lot of equipment. And the people I talk to, including commanders, I ask them a couple of questions. They’re not going to talk about politics first of all. They’re not - I’m not going to say, what do you think of Barack Obama? What do you think of John McCain’s plan? > > But when you say, if someone ordered you to draw down immediately and pull out two combat brigades a month, and one of the commanders over there who has Baghdad said, you cannot do it unless it’s conditions based, meaning you can’t make those decisions unless you know what’s happening on the ground, or they fail. They couldn’t be successful. He actually said he thought it was dangerous to withdraw on a timetable if it was not conditions based. > > MR. GJELTEN: But is that - is it politically impossible or is it logistically impossible? What about - could they - even if you didn’t consider - > > MS. RADDATZ: Physically pull out the equipment? > > MR. GJELTEN: Could you do it logistically? > > MS. RADDATZ: There’s a really interesting point about this. We redeploy troops all the time. We’ve got - we just ended the big troop surge and all of those came out, but what you usually happen is you have more going in. The soldiers and Marines leave, a lot of the equipment stays. And you’re talking about for two combat brigades 1,200 Humvees. So I also went to Kuwait and said, how do you get these out of here? You’ve got one little port in Kuwait, where everything would have to come out. Ninety percent of that equipment would have o come out through that port. They have to wash it all - I was standing in a howling dust storm and they’re trying to wash these Humvees and things like that. So you look at all the complications there. A couple of commanders said to me off camera, there is no way we could do that logistically. > > MS. MURRAY: Do you get the sense - we expect Senator Obama to go to Iraq shortly - and do you expect them to confront this issue with him when he - > > MS. RADDATZ: I think they will give their honest opinion. And if you look back what David Petraeus has said in the past, he talks about conditions based too. He talks about no timetable. I can’t imagine they’re going to suddenly change their tune because Senator Barack Obama’s there. I think he will get straightforward advice. They certainly know civilians control the policies and civilians control the military. And they do what they say and whoever gets elected, I’m sure they’ll follow orders. But I think he will probably get an ear full. It’s absurd to say the generals will just give him a dog and pony show. They have a vested interest in making sure the guy who is very likely to be their CiC in a few months has the info he needs to make the right decision. If Obama wants to know what they think, I see no reason to believe they won’t tell him. They’ be fools not to. > [@](#): > > I never brought up the question of whether McCain is being hypocritical here. The point is that McCain’s early and enthusiastic support of the invasion is logically inconsistent with his current position regarding what someone ‘must do’ to formulate acceptable policy. No, it’s not. One doesn’t just pop in to visit one’s enemies to check out the situation before invading. That’s an absurd comparison. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/24 "2008-07-15T22:49:04Z")
[Why Should You Go For Fatcow Hosting?](http://www.vaiw.org/vet/index.php) Then talk to these veterans to get a balanced picture. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/25 "2008-07-15T22:50:19Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] It’s absurd to say the generals will just give him a dog and pony show. They have a vested interest in making sure the guy who is very likely to be their CiC in a few months has the info he needs to make the right decision. If Obama wants to know what they think, I see no reason to believe they won’t tell him. They’ be fools not to. [/quote] They are probably Bush toadies, or they wouldn’t be in a position of authority. They’ll tell Obama what Bush wants Obama to be told. And, they likely ARE fools, or else they wouldn’t be allowed in positions of authority under Bush. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/26 "2008-07-15T23:05:04Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] They are probably Bush toadies, or they wouldn’t be in a position of authority. They’ll tell Obama what Bush wants Obama to be told. And, they likely ARE fools, or else they wouldn’t be allowed in positions of authority under Bush. [/QUOTE] They’re probably mind melded to Bush. No independent thinking whatsover. They don’t care about their own asses-- only making Bush look good. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/27 "2008-07-15T23:08:13Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] No, it’s not. One doesn’t just pop in to visit one’s enemies to check out the situation before invading. That’s an absurd comparison. [/QUOTE] One does do due diligence though, apparently except if it’s Iraq we’re talking about. I like the idea of having our leaders know what they are getting into before they make big decisions. I’m not willing to cut McCain, or anyone else, slack on the invasion just because doing it right would have been hard. > [@](#): > > It’s absurd to say the generals will just give him a dog and pony show. They have a vested interest in making sure the guy who is very likely to be their CiC in a few months has the info he needs to make the right decision. ## The general’s who owe their position to Bush? Heaven forfend that they would ever _politicize_ their dealings with Obama in order to aid Bush’s heir apparent. Why the whole conduct of the war has, to this point, been a shining example bipartisan propriety, and putting the good of the nation above the ambitions of a particular group or party. 😉 There’s a relevant piece on McCain’s recent turn-about on adding brigades in Afghanistan here: [Did Obama Force McCain To Flip-Flop On Afghanistan?](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/15/is-obama-forcing-mccain-t_n_112890.html) AFAIK, Obama’s never been to Afghanistan, McCain went in 2006. How is it that Obama’s approach now seems the correct one to McCain, if you have to go there to formulate an effective policy? The fact is, personal, on the ground experience of these places is _neither_ necessary or sufficient for the generation of good policy ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/28 "2008-07-15T23:10:16Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] One does do due diligence though, apparently except if it’s Iraq we’re talking about. I like the idea of having our leaders know what they are getting into before they make big decisions. I’m not willing to cut McCain, or anyone else, slack on the invasion just because doing it right would have been hard. [/quote] Well, we’re talking about Obama, here, not McCain. > [@](#): > > The general’s who owe their position to Bush? No. The generals who will owe their positions to Obama. Bush just isn’t a factor anymore. He won’t even have any way of knowing who said what to Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/29 "2008-07-15T23:19:35Z")
I don’t see how visiting Iraq is of any consequence whatever. Talking to the military leadership to formulate strategy is obviously paramount, but it isn’t necessary to vist Iraq to do that. McCain is tryinbg to argue that Obama shouldn’t make the decision to end the occupation without going back to Iraq, which is retarded. There is no reason to be there and that’s the end of it. There’s nothing to see there which will change that. The escalation may or may not have temporarily tamped down some violence, but so what? How does that justify our presence there? Obama is right that Iraq is not and never has been any kind of front in the so-called “war on terror.” There’s nothing to “win” there. We’re not defending ourselves from anything by remaining there and there’s nothing to learn by going there. I think the real dirty secret is what’s going on in Pakistan. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/30 "2008-07-15T23:29:11Z")
So why is Obama going. Is he retarded? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/31 "2008-07-15T23:33:52Z")
Obama appears to be refining his web site regarding his position on Iraq. It will be interesting to see what refinement ensue after his visit. > [@](#): > > [Obama Web site removes `surge’ from Iraq problem](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080715/ap_on_el_pr/obama_web_site) > > Barack Obama’s aides have removed criticism of President Bush’s increase of troops to Iraq from the campaign Web site, part of an effort to update the Democrat’s written war plan to reflect changing conditions. Good for him. That’s a smart thing to do. > [@DtC](#): > > I think the real dirty secret is what’s going on in Pakistan. It ain’t a secret. Unless you’d care to elaborate… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/32 "2008-07-15T23:46:50Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] No. The generals who will owe their positions to Obama. Bush just isn’t a factor anymore. [/quote] I expect that they won’t get cushy, high paying jobs with Bush’s buddies after they retire if they offend him. [QUOTE=John Mace] He won’t even have any way of knowing who said what to Obama. [/QUOTE] Oh, I expect that there will be plenty of people sending reports to Bush ( or his puppet masters ) about what was said by whom. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/33 "2008-07-16T00:50:29Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] So why is Obama going. Is he retarded? [/QUOTE] Yes **John** , that’s right. Obama is a retard. He’s fallen for McCain’s latest incarnation of gas-tax-holiday-like arguments and will end up crucifying himself when he meets up with the cold hard facts on the ground of Iraq. OTOH, maybe a significant subsection of voters think that it might be a good idea for Obama to visit Iraq. It might not be all that good an idea, but if the voters want it, why not? Obama’s sharp enough that he can probably avoid any traps set by Bush’s operatives. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/34 "2008-07-16T00:52:04Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Well, we’re talking about Obama, here, not McCain. [/QUOTE] It’s McCain’s stupid argument. How can we **not** talk about him? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/35 "2008-07-16T01:13:22Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Yes **John** , that’s right. Obama is a retard. [/QUOTE] Context, _mi amigo_, context. I was responding to this: > [@DtC](#): > > I don’t see how visiting Iraq is of any consequence whatever…McCain is tryinbg to argue that Obama shouldn’t make the decision to end the occupation without going back to Iraq, which is retarded. And yet Obama is going over there. Now, I don’t think he’s retarded for doing so, but apparently \*\*DtC \*\*does. Or maybe **DtC** ’s argument falls apart, since wyou and I both think Obama isn’t “retarded”. > [@Squink](#): > > It’s McCain’s stupid argument. How can we not talk about him? Because the OP is asking us if we think it’s a good idea or not. I think it’s a very good idea, for the reasons I outlined above. But if you’ve already made up your mind what course you want to take, then going over there will be a waste of time. Obama apparently doesn’t think it’s a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/36 "2008-07-16T01:37:20Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] And yet Obama is going over there. Now, I don’t think he’s retarded for doing so, but apparently \*\*DtC \*\*does. Or maybe **DtC** ’s argument falls apart, since wyou and I both think Obama isn’t “retarded”. [/quote] Perhaps he’s going merely because it’s politically expedient to do so, not that it’s in any way “necessary” or “important” to do so (in a militarily strategic context). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/37 "2008-07-16T01:44:06Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] And yet Obama is going over there. Now, I don’t think he’s retarded for doing so, but apparently \*\*DtC \*\*does. Or maybe **DtC** ’s argument falls apart, since wyou and I both think Obama isn’t “retarded”. [/quote] He’s not going over there to make a determination about whether to pull out troops, though. He’s already decided that. McCain is whinging that Obama shouldn’t have made that determination without going to Iraq first. That, I’m sure you will agree, is retarded. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/38 "2008-07-16T01:46:48Z")
[QUOTE=Darwin’s Finch] Perhaps he’s going merely because it’s politically expedient to do so, not that it’s in any way “necessary” or “important” to do so (in a militarily strategic context). [/QUOTE] In that case, then perhaps all his talk about “change” is just bullshit. Me, I go with the simplest explanation. He needs to start formulating an exit strategy that has more substance to it than “remove all combat troops within 16 months”. One key ingredient will be to meet with many people whom he can most effectively meet with in Iraq. He hasn’t been over there in a long time, and I would expect him, as CiC, to visit there many times during his tenure. Might as well start now, so he can better hit the ground running. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/39 "2008-07-16T02:01:35Z")
Going there to start tactical dicussions about how to get out is not the same as going there to _decide_ if we should get out. I still don’t even think the former is particularly necessary. Let’s face it. He’s going there because he’s running for President. But the idea that anything occurring on the ground in Iraq has any relevance to whether we should continue the occupation is just silly. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/40 "2008-07-16T02:12:47Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] He’s not going over there to make a determination about whether to pull out troops, though. He’s already decided that. McCain is whinging that Obama shouldn’t have made that determination without going to Iraq first. That, I’m sure you will agree, is retarded. [/QUOTE] Yup. What with the intensely secretive nature of the current administration, it’s impossible to put together the nuts and bolts of the best withdrawal strategy without first taking over the white house, and subsequently getting a look at all the super-dooper top-secret stuff about the situation over there that Bush has been witholding. _Maybe_ if Obama takes a trip to Iraq now, Maliki, or one of the generals will speak some interesting cold, hard facts. I’m not holding my breath for it, but I suppose there are some who may be. Let them hope. Let others hope the trip’ll cause scales to fall from Obama’s eyes. I expect those later people will end up disillusioned, but that’s OK too. When people get silly ideas in their head, they need to be disillusioned of them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597.md?page=3)