# How important is it to visit Iraq before coming up with a strategy to deal with it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 15, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597 "2008-07-15T19:57:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/61 "2008-07-16T17:31:28Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Promotion? And you don’t think his handlers will be anxious to present themselves in the best possible light? [/quote] As CiC, he needs to learn to see through that, to the extent it exists. If he can’t do that, he better start learning now. But I’ve given a cite, above, from a knowledgeable journalist who says you are wrong. Got a cite that says you’re right from someone with any experience in the matter? > [@](#): > > And you miss my point about risk, its not about the risk to him, personally, just as Obama, but the risks to the Secret Service personnel and the soldiers who are assigned to protect him. As well, the risk to the whole situation. What are the chances someone willing to die could get to him? Frankly, I don’t know, but how in the _hell_ do you make that impossible? Well, if we worried about making such things impossible, we’d never do anything. “Impossible” is an absurd criterion. > [@](#): > > But if it happened, I presume it will have a rather large impact on the situation. A pretty significant impact, I daresay. Wild speculation, I know, but justifiable, I think… Has this ever happened before and has it had a "pretty significant impact " on the situation? Of course, the alternative is to think that Obama is wrecklessly endangering the lives of others for his own political gain. Is that what you’re telling us he’s doing? Frankly, I trust Obama’s judgement on the matter more than yours. With all due respect, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/62 "2008-07-16T18:07:13Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Does it worry you at all, **Sam** , that McCain dpoes not know the difference between Sunni and Shia or have any grasp of the factions in Iraq? [/QUOTE] You need to get your worldview from somewhere other than the analysis of soundbites by left-wing pundits and web sites. McCain _clearly_ understands the various factions in Iraq, and he has talked about them many times. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/63 "2008-07-16T18:14:51Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] You need to get your worldview from somewhere other than the analysis of soundbites by left-wing pundits and web sites. McCain _clearly_ understands the various factions in Iraq, and he has talked about them many times. [/QUOTE] While I agree that he does understand the difference between Sunni and Shi’a, it is disturbing, to say the least, that he would be so addled as to mix them up on multiple occasions. Maybe stress related, maybe a few senior moments-- either way, it’s not good. Of course, we’ve had multiple threads on that subject, and bringing it up here is nothing more than a _tu quoque_ argument. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/64 "2008-07-16T18:17:32Z")
Sure, that’s why he thinks the Iraq occupation has anything to do with fighting _al Qaeda_. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/65 "2008-07-16T18:36:42Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] As CiC, he needs to learn to see through that, to the extent it exists. If he can’t do that, he better start learning now. But I’ve given a cite, above, from a knowledgeable journalist who says you are wrong. Got a cite that says you’re right from someone with any experience in the matter?.. [/quote] Gee, **John** , thanks for the cite, nothing like plowing through an entire transcript of _Washington Week_ to find the one little nugget of cite. Boy, thanks for making it so goddamn! easy. I assume you are referring to Ms. Raddatz? > [@](#): > > …I can’t imagine they’re going to suddenly change their tune because Senator Barack Obama’s there. I think he will get straightforward advice… She may be very knowledgeable. But your interpretation of her remarks implys an almost superhuman dispassion and objectivity. It has been my experience that people tend to present themselves in the best possible light to their bosses or potential bosses. No doubt your life experience reflects another reality entire. > [@](#): > > …Well, if we worried about making such things impossible, we’d never do anything. “Impossible” is an absurd criterion… (sigh) Please advise as to what semantic stipulation would make you happiest. Not saying he shouldn’t do this unless his safety is assured by an affidavit from God Almighty, countersigned by Gabriel. Saying that since such certainty isn’t possible, the risks outweight the (neglibible) benefits. > [@](#): > > …Has this ever happened before and has it had a "pretty significant impact " on the situation?.. Well, gee, **John** , I’m probably just speculating wildly here, you know how I am, but I kinda think if the Democratic nominee for President gets smoked in Iraq, its going to have a “pretty significant impact” on, oh, just about _everything!!_ Christ on a crutch, why the hell are you niggling me about this? > [@](#): > > …Of course, the alternative is to think that Obama is wrecklessly endangering the lives of others for his own political gain. Is that what you’re telling us he’s doing? Frankly, I trust Obama’s judgement on the matter more than yours. With all due respect, of course. **John** , gimme a break! Just one, just once, don’t twist my words into a balloon animal or inflate them into the Hindenburg! With all due awe, fo course. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/66 "2008-07-16T18:49:27Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Well, the Wilson analogy is just silly since transportation technology has changed just a wee bit since 1917. Don’t you think? [/quote] IIRC it was possible to cross the Atlantic in 10 days in 1917 and the U-boat threat was largely passed. > [@](#): > > Roosevelt traveled to Europe/the M.E. several times during WWII. Ciaro, Tehran, Yalta. Oh come now… by those standards, Obama can visit the Ritz in Dubai and call it a visit to the war zone. > [@](#): > > Here’s a [photo of Nixon in Vietnam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Roosevelt#War_strategy) in 1969. That is not a link to a photo of Nixon. Even if it were, Saigon was not the front line that Baghdad is today, roamed openly by armed insurgents. I think it’s blatantly obvious that there is no precedent to demand that a presidential candidate visit a war zone and get his noggin blown off to appease the disingenous indignation of the opposing party. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/67 "2008-07-16T19:07:21Z")
[QUOTE=xanthous] Definitely not a trick question. This talking point kind of stuck out at me, because McCain & supporters are definitely characterizing Obama as being inexperienced, with this strategy-before-visit being an example of a giant misstep by Obama. I guess my question is: is this a glaring example of Obama’s purported inexperience, or just McCain trying to get leverage in this race? [/QUOTE] I love the fact that people mention Bush II doing the same thing i.e. not visiting Iraq before setting policy because that now means that Obama did the same the Evil Bush did. If you criticize Bush for it, you are also criticizing your own candidate. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/68 "2008-07-16T19:25:36Z")
[QUOTE=Saint Cad] I love the fact that people mention Bush II doing the same thing i.e. not visiting Iraq before setting policy because that now means that Obama did the same the Evil Bush did. If you criticize Bush for it, you are also criticizing your own candidate. [/QUOTE] It is an interesting logic, isn’t it? Especially when you figure in the exception for invasion supporting former prisoners of war who just happen to be running for president. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/69 "2008-07-16T19:36:30Z")
[QUOTE=Saint Cad] I love the fact that people mention Bush II doing the same thing i.e. not visiting Iraq before setting policy because that now means that Obama did the same the Evil Bush did. If you criticize Bush for it, you are also criticizing your own candidate. [/QUOTE] Uhm… nobody’s criticizing Bush II for not visiting Iraq before invading it. They’re pointing out that obviously the Republicans didn’t think it was necessary then, so why are they demanding it of Obama now? The major gripe with Bush is that he either misused or failed to use the information available from the comfort of the Oval Office, not that he didn’t go to Baghdad enough times. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/70 "2008-07-16T19:54:19Z")
[QUOTE=Cosmic Relief] They’re pointing out that obviously the Republicans didn’t think it was necessary then, so why are they demanding it of Obama now? [/QUOTE] McCain foreign policy adviser Randy Scheunemann [clarifies that for us:](http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/mccain_camps_new_attack_obama.php) > [@](#): > > “I think the American people have had enough of inflexibility and stubbornness in national security policy,” Scheunemann said. When asked later by the Huffington Post’s Sam Stein whether the campaign was disparaging President Bush, Scheunemann dug in: “We cannot afford to replace one administration that refused for too long to acknowledge failure in Iraq with a candidate that refuses to acknowledge success in Iraq.” See, we’re _winning_ in Iraq, and Obama is just being unreasonable and Bush-like by refusing to see that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/71 "2008-07-16T20:26:15Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Gee, **John** , thanks for the cite, nothing like plowing through an entire transcript of _Washington Week_ to find the one little nugget of cite. Boy, thanks for making it so goddamn! easy. I assume you are referring to Ms. Raddatz? [/quote] What re you talking about? I quoted the relevant section in post #23 and underlined the pertinent sentence. You needn’t have searched for anything if you took the time to read to my post. Sorry, but I can’t hold your hand any tighter than that. > [@](#): > > She may be very knowledgeable. But your interpretation of her remarks implys an almost superhuman dispassion and objectivity. It has been my experience that people tend to present themselves in the best possible light to their bosses or potential bosses. No doubt your life experience reflects another reality entire. Like I said, if you got a better cite that advances your argument, lets see it. So far, all we have is your musings. You also neglect to mention that when people find themselves need deep in shit, and there’s new management a-coming, there is not better time to lay it on the line and make a fresh start. Obama is predisposed to believe that Iraq is a mess, so he’s going to be all ears to anyone who tells him that. > [@](#): > > (sigh) Please advise as to what semantic stipulation would make you happiest. Not saying he shouldn’t do this unless his safety is assured by an affidavit from God Almighty, countersigned by Gabriel. Saying that since such certainty isn’t possible, the risks outweight the (neglibible) benefits. Hey, don’t ask me to help you articulate your own argument. I’m just responding to what you post. You talk about risks, but in 5 years of dozens of US visits, there has been nary a scratch. > [@](#): > > Well, gee, **John** , I’m probably just speculating wildly here, you know how I am, but I kinda think if the Democratic nominee for President gets smoked in Iraq, its going to have a “pretty significant impact” on, oh, just about _everything!!_ Again, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Of course it would be a problem if he were killed or injured. Point being, though, that we seem to be able to get US politicians in and out of Iraq routinely. If it’s so incredibly risky, why has none been injured in over 5 years? > [@](#): > > Christ on a crutch, why the hell are you niggling me about this? It’s part of your argument. If you don’t want anyone to respond to it, then don’t post it. > [@](#): > > **John** , gimme a break! Just one, just once, don’t twist my words into a balloon animal or inflate them into the Hindenburg! With all due awe, fo course. Nope, not going to let that one by. There is a difference between twisting someone’s words, and following the logic of an argument. If you are going to make an argument, you need to be able to live with the logical conclusions of that argument. If not, then there is no point in debating with you. You are telling us that there is a good likelihood that people will die because of Obama’s visit. OK, answer this: do you think Obama is aware of that? If not, why not? If he is, and if he is just pandering to the electorate, then why is he willing to sacrifice lives for his political ambition? Now, you and I probably both think that he isn’t willing to risk lives for his political amibition. And so we must conclude that Obama does not share your assessment about the importance of the trip or about the risks involved. As I said… I’ll take his assessment over yours. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/72 "2008-07-16T20:39:08Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] If you are going to make an argument, you need to be able to live with the logical conclusions of that argument. [/QUOTE] So McCain should’ve never brought the idea that Obama ‘needs’ to visit Iraq in order to form a credible Iraq policy? Or is he willing to live with _his own_ inconsistency with that supposed principle, but not the inconsistency of others? Yes, yes, _I know_ “we’re talking about Obama, here, not McCain”. It’s just that McCain seems to keep popping up. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/73 "2008-07-16T20:43:57Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] So McCain should’ve never brought the idea that Obama ‘needs’ to visit Iraq in order to form a credible Iraq policy? Or is he willing to live with _his own_ inconsistency with that supposed principle, but not the inconsistency of others? [/QUOTE] What are those inconsistencies? Here’s how this works. **elucidator** : X is true. **John** : Yeah, but if X is true, then Y must also be true. And I think you and I can agree that Y is not true. In which case, X is not true either. **elucidator** : quit twisting my words! **John** : Well, is Y true? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/74 "2008-07-16T20:54:55Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] What are those inconsistencies? [/QUOTE] Well, I mentioned clear upthread that McCain fully backed the invasion without undertaking or demanding the sort of due diligence which he is now claims to expect of Obama. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/75 "2008-07-16T21:07:15Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Well, I mentioned clear upthread that McCain fully backed the invasion without undertaking or demanding the sort of due diligence which he is now claims to expect of Obama. [/QUOTE] Yeah, and that’s one of the main reasons I’m not planning to vote for McCain. He signed on to the war w/o doing due diligence. I didn’t expect him to go to Baghdad\*, but I did expect him to read the full NIE and understand who is threat to us and who isn’t. But just because McCain made a mistake, doesn’t mean we would should excuse Obama in making a similar one. And, as I mentioned upthread, just because McCain is a hypocrite doesn’t mean he’s wrong (on this issue). \*Assuming he would’ve been allowed in, it would’ve just been a propaganda event for Hussein. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/76 "2008-07-16T21:10:27Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Well, I mentioned clear upthread that McCain fully backed the invasion without undertaking or demanding the sort of due diligence which he is now claims to expect of Obama. [/QUOTE] The two situations aren’t really comparable and it’s a stretch to try and make them so. What exactly would have been the point of McCain going to Iraq BEFORE the invasion? We didn’t have troops stationed there. We weren’t attempting to work with the Iraqi’s on a strategic or tactical level…we were planning to go to war with them! What would he have talked to Saddam about exactly? How would this have shaped or changed our policies wrt a continued US/Iraqi relationship since we HAD no such relationship, even tenuously? Today we DO have troops in Iraq. We ARE working with the current Iraqi government. I’d say that such a trip is definitely relevant today for both candidates, so that they can not only get a feel for how the commanders and troops feel about things but also how our diplomats on the ground there feel and how the Iraqi’s feel…especially in light of the fact that Obama has hinted that he may want to make drastic strategic changes to our stance wrt Iraq in the future. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/77 "2008-07-16T22:16:23Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] just because McCain made a mistake, doesn’t mean we would should excuse Obama in making a similar one. And, as I mentioned upthread, just because McCain is a hypocrite doesn’t mean he’s wrong (on this issue). [/QUOTE] Second things first: There’s a difference between logical inconsistency and hypocrisy here, **John**. McCain may have, as you mentioned with respect to **elucidator** , simply failed to understand the implications of his own argument. The term hypocrite isn’t usually applied to folks who are only guilty of being a little dumb in making an argument. That’s a separate issue from whether Obama should, or needs to go to Iraq before the election. Some of us just don’t see any obvious upside to his doing so. If you feel that he ought to go to Iraq in order to ‘hit the ground running’ once he becomes president, wouldn’t it make more sense for him to wait until mid-november? With the election behind him, he’d be in a _much_ stronger position with regard to demanding candor from Maliki and the generals, and it’d still allow time for him to start tweaking his plans before assuming office. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/78 "2008-07-16T22:51:06Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Second things first: There’s a difference between logical inconsistency and hypocrisy here, **John**. McCain may have, as you mentioned with respect to **elucidator** , simply failed to understand the implications of his own argument. The term hypocrite isn’t usually applied to folks who are only guilty of being a little dumb in making an argument. [/quote] I’m not following you. McCain would be a hypocrite because he’s saying: do as I say, not as I do. Whether elucidiator’s argument makes logical sense is an entirely different matter. > [@](#): > > That’s a separate issue from whether Obama should, or needs to go to Iraq before the election. Some of us just don’t see any obvious upside to his doing so. If you feel that he ought to go to Iraq in order to ‘hit the ground running’ once he becomes president, wouldn’t it make more sense for him to wait until mid-november? With the election behind him, he’d be in a _much_ stronger position with regard to demanding candor from Maliki and the generals, and it’d still allow time for him to start tweaking his plans before assuming office. He needs to sell an Iraq policy to the US, and the question is whether he can put together a credible one w/o visiting there first. I expect him to make several trips per year, so going there during the campaign and after the election are both good ideas. It’s a dynamic situation. But going sooner is better than going later. I’m sure he’ll get plenty of attention now. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/79 "2008-07-16T23:11:12Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I’m not following you. McCain would be a hypocrite because he’s saying: do as I say, not as I do. Whether elucidiator’s argument makes logical sense is an entirely different matter. [/QUOTE] I’m saying that he’s probably never really thought about the implications of his early support of the war in that way. Maybe if he did, he’d see that there’s some dishonesty there, but I think you’re over the top in applying so pejorative a term to what is probably the result of routinely muddy thinking. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2008, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597/80 "2008-07-16T23:24:18Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] I’m saying that he’s probably never really thought about the implications of his early support of the war in that way. Maybe if he did, he’d see that there’s some dishonesty there, but I think you’re over the top in applying so pejorative a term to what is probably the result of routinely muddy thinking. [/QUOTE] Well, I think it’s multi-faceted. I know for a fact that McCain didn’t read the actual NIE, relying on the Bush-edited version. In that sense, he did not do due diligence leading up to the war. He’s now chastising Obama for not doing what he considers to be due diligence in formulating an Iraq policy going forward. Hypocrisy. Then there are all sorts of implications for things McCain has said about Iraq since the war began, not the least of which was his bone-headed comment about how safe he was in that market. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-important-is-it-to-visit-iraq-before-coming-up-with-a-strategy-to-deal-with-it/456597.md?page=5)