How important is it to visit Iraq before coming up with a strategy to deal with it?

McCain visited Iraq, accompanied by 100 American soldiers, with three Blackhawk helicopters, and two Apache gunships overhead, followed by an insurgent mortar barrage. It’s about as safe as watching it on television in Washington D.C. except maybe the risk of a poorly mounted TV falling on your head, or perhaps you might choke on a pretzel.

Oh, and did this visit inform McCain’s view of the situation? Afterward, he reported that Baghdad was “safe enough for you or I to walk around in.” Yep John, you’ve got a firm grasp on the situation. He risks poking his eye out with this particular talking point.

Define “continue the occupation”. How many combat troops do you think will be there in July 2012?

How should I know? I’m not Kreskin. I would hope it would be zero.

By the way, if you’re asking whether I would consider any military presence at all to be an “occupation,” my answer is I don’t care if you want to call it that or not. I want zero military presence in Iraq. I know Obama wants to keep some troops there. I still would prefer zero. I don’t want the US to have any permanent bases in Iraq.

I’d argue that it’s far more important for Obama to go than for McCain to go, because Obama has far more to learn.

Doesn’t it worry anyone even a slight bit that Obama may be CinC at a time when the military is very active and there are two wars going on, when he not only has never served, but he’s never shown the slightest bit of interest in military matters? It would be good for him to go if only for the knowledge he would gain about the sheer scale of the military deployment to Iraq and to get the perspective of the military he may be leading in six months.

What Obama should be doing is listening to current ranking generals, getting second opinions from previous generals, then picking up some serious military advisers who will help him make decisions. And non-partisan ones, at that. People who can’t be smeared as Democrat operatives. He should take them along, go through Iraq with them at his side, then issue a statement regarding the policy he’s decided to follow after hard consulting with them.

It’s really off-putting the way he talks about how he’s going to go there and he will decide the strategy. He’s not qualified to do so, and he would be better served to admit it, show some humility, and put some serious military people front and center.

He’s going to be vulnerable on Iraq. McCain is going to hammer him about his opposition to the surge. The argument is going to go like this:

“How can you trust Obama’s instincts on military matters? Since he has been in the Senate, one major military decision came up before him - the surge. Obama not only voted against it, but he declared that the surge would make the problem worse. He ignored the advice of the senior general in Iraq. In fact, the surge has worked, and Iraq is on its way to being a functional, stable country. Had Obama had the power to make the decision then, we would be embroiled in a civil war.”

Trust me, that argument is coming. Obama needs to be ready for it. That’s why he’s going to Iraq now. And that’s why he’s pivoting away from his earlier positions, and why they’ve removed any mention of a fixed timetable from his web site. He also did a very smart thing when he denounced MoveOn.org’s “General Betrayus” ad - that will give him a bit of cover. But he should go one step further and say something like this:

"I opposed the surge. And I was wrong. This is what experience is all about. I learned about hubris, about letting your politics intrude on your judgment. My opinion was not my own - it was shared by the Baker-Hamilton commission and by many ex-generals and experts in foreign policy. They were also wrong. However, unlike George Bush, I am willing to be a student of my own experiences and to strive to improve my judgment. I would hope everyone feels that way.

Having been to Iraq, and having seen the dramatic progress there, it’s clear that we can not just leave our new friends and go home. But more importantly, it is now clear the that the quickest path to withdrawal from Iraq is to get Iraq on its feet again - a job our military, led by General Petraeus, is doing brilliantly. Futhermore, casualties in Iraq are now much lower than they had been when I called for a pullout, and show every sign of continuing to decline.

Nonetheless, I am not John McCain. I do not want America tied to the middle east for 100 years. I want us to become independent. We need to be energy independent, and we need to be militarily independent. And I want Iraq to be independent. Therefore, under my Presidency our soldiers will come home. We seek no influence over Iraq, other than the influence of a good friend and ally. We will help them fight al-Qaida, and we will help protect their borders should they ask. They are our friends, and we owe them. But we will not occupy their country, and we will not keep garrisons of soldiers there one day longer than is necessary."

A message like that would also play very well to the Iraqis.

Obama is actually very canny about these things, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he gave some variation on a speech like that. He’s learned that the best way to avoid a problem is to acknowledge it early, deflect it, and take it away from your opponent. He did that by admitting drug use in his book, and that’s why it hasn’t hurt him. He did it with Reverend Wright. He’s doing it with his speeches to the black community. While they are certainly sincere, Obama knows that what he’s saying resonates big time with the southern white people he needs to attract. He’s turning a weakness into a strength. Smart guy.

He needs to do the same on Iraq. If he goes into the election denying that he opposed the surge, or trying to weasel his way through by parsing the meaning of ‘is’ or something like that, it’s going to hurt him. The facts aren’t on his side.

Also, one of Obama’s liabilities is that people see him as arrogant. An expression of humility right now would probably increase his standing in the polls, and not hurt him at all. And then in the future if McCain brings up the surge, Obama can just say, “We’ve already discussed this. Let’s talk about your judgment in putting us in Iraq in the first place. Unlike you, I’m willing to admit my mistakes and learn from them.”

Not only should he not go, he should refuse to go. What the fuck is he going to see that isn’t already laid out for him to see? He is going to a very long dog and pony show, there is no information other than geography to be gained that he can’t get just by asking. What’s he going to do, peer into Maliki’s soul and take his inventory?

And what if something does happen to him there? Can you imagine the insanity that would break out if some fanatic manages to get to him? How are a couple of photo ops worth that kind of risk? If he wants information and briefings from commanders in the field, they can hop a jet and be back here in a matter of hours, give him their views and be back for karaoke night at the PX. What is his physical presence going to tell him? Its hot, dry,and unpleasantly dangerous, he can get that in Tijuana.

The only thing worse than this sort of risk is this sort of *useless *risk. He oughta say “Fuck this shit, I’m not going to put a lot of Secret Service guys and soldiers at risk just for a photo op and a grip and grin with Maliki.”

Whole thing is fucking Ricky Retardo.

Yeah, he should refuse to go. Too dangerous. I ain’t going to no war zone!! :eek: There’s nothing to be learned there that I don’t already know and no one to meet with worth talking to who I can’t summon to come here post haste. I am The Obama!

I can imagine him engendering the confidence of the nation and surging in the polls.

Well, OK, I’m listening. What facts can be gotten by his actual physical presence there that are not otherwise available? Facts so crucial as to justify the risk. (Or do you deny there is any such risk?)

Where would you suggest he go, to obtain information he cannot get any other way? McCain’s pretense that he is more knowledgeable by the fact that he has walked about (under massive, complex, expensive, intrusive, and risky protection) in an Iraqi marketplace is horseshit, and should be directly challenged on that basis. McCain thought the “surge” was a miracle of strategery, he flew in, walked around, and flew back out. Result? The “surge” is a miracle of strategery. Well, whoopty-fuckity-doo! Never would have guessed that, huh?

People buy it, thats why he has to go. Many dingbats do not get past the headlines. He should talk to Gen Teguba and Admiral Mullen to counterbalance the show he will be given in Iraq. What will Maliki say to him?

It’s not just facts, it’s about leadership. And frankly, if we knew what facts he’d learn, then we could just tell him. What kind of signal would it send to the troops (from the Generals on down) if he refused to go to Iraq? He needs to engage with the troops and develop a relationship with them. You don’t get that by reading reports. Any book on leadership will tell you that. And he needs to do the same with the Iraqi government. He needs to show them he has interest in the country and he does need to, corny as it sounds, look into their eyes and size them up. This isn’t a one-shot deal. It needs to be a process over time, with many such trips. He’s already behind the curve, so he needs to catch up quickly.

Sure there are risks. But no US politician has been harmed while visiting Iraq in the last 5 years, and plenty have gone there. If he’s unwilling to take on that risk, then he’s not fit to be president. I find the idea that all he’ll get is a dog and pony show to be ludicrous. What the fuck would the military leadership in Iraq have to gain by offering him just a dog and pony show?

As for McCain, he’s got his own problems in terms of what he has accomplished with his trips to Iraq. But I have no reason to believe that our preferred candidate, Obama, will have the same mindset and make the same mistakes as McCain. If he refused to travel to Iraq, I doubt I’d be able to vote for him, and I think that would hold for quite a few of his non-die hard supporters.

I disagree that he needs to form any relationship with the troops. Their feelings are irrelavent to anything. If he becomes CIC, then they will do what they’re told and that’s the end of it. Who cares if they like it?

Promotion? And you don’t think his handlers will be anxious to present themselves in the best possible light?

And you miss my point about risk, its not about the risk to him, personally, just as Obama, but the risks to the Secret Service personnel and the soldiers who are assigned to protect him. As well, the risk to the whole situation. What are the chances someone willing to die could get to him? Frankly, I don’t know, but how in the hell do you make that impossible?

But if it happened, I presume it will have a rather large impact on the situation. A pretty significant impact, I daresay. Wild speculation, I know, but justifiable, I think…

As ever, gracefully put. I can already hear the keyboards a-clacking…

Did someone say ‘fungible’? :wink:

Graceful, no, but it’s essentially what I was told when I was in. My opinions on Reagan were regarded with the utmost indifference by his administration. I think the notion that a POTUS needs to build some kind of bomhomie with the troops is greatly overcooked. They do their jobs the same whether they like the President or not. It’s also somewhat of a lost cause for anyone who hasn’t served.

Did Wilson travel to the Eastern Front in WW1? Roosevelt to Normandy in WW2? Nixon to Vietnam? Reagan to Grenada? I’m not certain but I think they all stayed home until the actual soldiers had finished the job.

I know Bush made a couple of secret dashes in there, but those were PR junkets to support his war of convenience. By all accounts, he was provided some superficial canine-and-equestrian theatre with handpicked friendly troops who were coached only to give the right responses. Bush didn’t learn anything there, not that he intended to. Where could you go in Baghdad and actually learn anything without getting your head shot off?

Given all this, why the sudden presumption that US presidents are supposed to visit war zones? This is nothing but some stupid ‘gotcha’ move just because McCain went and Obama didn’t. And we’ve already covered McCain’s depth of experience there.

I agree with John this much: that he probably has to, politically. Now that the can of worms has been opened, he pretty much has to eat one of them. Shit.

No, not at all. We’ve been over this before, in the experience vs. judgment questions. IMHO, the only experience that can truly be said to prepare one for the presidency is the presidency; thus, I think good judgment is more important than experience (however one defines it). And I “worry” not at all about Obama’s good judgment. YMMV.

That’s not to disparage McCain, as that’s not the question I’m addressing, nor is it to say that Obama shouldn’t visit Iraq. What I am saying is that I don’t think it’s all that important for him to visit prior to strategizing. Yes, you’re right – he’ll gain knowledge from a perspective not otherwise available. Despite your “never shown the slightest bit of interest in military matters” hyperbole (contradicted simply by considering and responding to the OP), it’ll be more of a fleshing out process rather than a full-on education.

Does it worry you at all, Sam, that McCain dpoes not know the difference between Sunni and Shia or have any grasp of the factions in Iraq?

Well, the Wilson analogy is just silly since transportation technology has changed just a wee bit since 1917. Don’t you think?

Roosevelt traveled to Europe/the M.E. several times during WWII. Ciaro, Tehran, Yalta.
Here’s a photo of Nixon in Vietnam in 1969.

Why would Reagan visit Grenada? The war, such as it was, was over before it started. You’re reaching on that one.