# How irreligious is Europe/British Isles really? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 26, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056 "2005-10-26T20:42:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/1 "2005-10-26T20:42:33Z")
I’m Assembly of God, a liberal by AoG standards but far to the right of many Dopers 😃 . We occasionally have missionaries & articles in our weekly magazine speaking of the irreligiousness of Europe & the British Isles, the meager church attendance of even the mainstream historic C’tian churches, and how New Age & occult ideas & groups are more popular than those churches- all to promote how we & other evangelical & charismatic churches are working to revive C’tian faith in those areas. So what’s the reality? Is historic European C’nity really in as sad shape or is it just that, we figure they must be lanquishing because they’re difference types of Christians than we are? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/2 "2005-10-26T20:49:28Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I’m Assembly of God, a liberal by AoG standards but far to the right of many Dopers 😃 . We occasionally have missionaries & articles in our weekly magazine speaking of the irreligiousness of Europe & the British Isles, the meager church attendance of even the mainstream historic C’tian churches, and how New Age & occult ideas & groups are more popular than those churches- all to promote how we & other evangelical & charismatic churches are working to revive C’tian faith in those areas. > > So what’s the reality? Is historic European C’nity really in as sad shape or is it just that, we figure they must be lanquishing because they’re difference types of Christians than we are? About 7% of people who say they are Christian attend church in the UK: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3725801.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3725801.stm) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/3 "2005-10-26T21:01:52Z")
Yep, regular church attendance is something for a small minority. Most people go through their lives without really thinking about it all that much. Scratch the surface, and it becomes more complicated. Most people in England (I’ll restrict myself to talking about the one country) will, if asked, describe themselves as CofE. But whether that means they _are_ religious is another matter. I know people who describe themselves as such, but do not believe in a virgin birth, or in the resurrection, or in heaven or hell, or in miracles…there comes a point at which ‘Church of England’ is a label they’re happy to attach to themselves, because the alternative is to ask themselves some very complicated questions. Also, a big difference between Europe and America is the presence (or otherwise) of religion in public life. American politicians’ public statements of religious conviction, their mentions of God and so on, would be very very out of place in European politics. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/4 "2005-10-26T21:50:46Z")
I think the situation here is very similar to the UK. In the cities, hardly anyone goes to church. On the other hand I lived in a bavarian village as a child and the situation there was a bit different. One thing that seems different from the US is that fewer people actually care about the theological issues. Being member of a denomination (at least the big two, Catholicism and the EKD, a franchise of Evangelical/Lutheran/Reformed churches) can be a mixture of tradition and pure indifference. In addition to that many people who don’t believe in any of the details like the resurrection still identify with the work of the parishes. This is also seen by many as a sufficient justification for the church taxes. The churches act as general charities and/or as local “clubs” for many activities. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/5 "2005-10-26T21:53:36Z")
If they have little or no attendence, how do they afford to do charitable work? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/6 "2005-10-26T21:56:20Z")
> [@](#): > > The Republic of Ireland is 92% nominally Roman Catholic, but there has been a massive decline in full adherence among Irish Catholics. Between 1996 and 2001, regular Mass attendance, already previously in decline, declined from 60% to 48% (it had been 90%+ in 1973), and all but two of its seminaries have closed. > **[Republic of Ireland | Demographics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland#Demographics)** > > Genetic research suggests that the earliest settlers migrated from Iberia following the most recent ice age. After the Mesolithic, Neolithic and Bronze Age, migrants introduced a Celtic language and culture. Migrants from the two latter eras still represent the genetic heritage of most Irish people. Gaelic tradition expanded and became the dominant form over time. Irish people are a combination of Gaelic, Norse, Anglo-Norman, French, and British ancestry. > The population of Ireland stood at 4,588... Church attendance is way down in Ireland. While the Catholic Church is still a big part of Irish culture it is becoming less so every year. This is a relatively recent change spurred on no doubt by the decade of scandals involving members of the church culminating coincidently enough yesterday with the publishing of the Ferns Report which uncovers the abuse of over a hundred children over 40 years by 26 priests in just one diocese in Ireland. This is causing a HUGE shitstorm over here. A previous government fell from power due to a previous scandal. > [@](#): > > The report on the Ferns investigation faulted police and local officials for their failure to follow up aggressively on complaints of sexual abuse. But the most scathing criticism was leveled against Church leaders who covered up charges, silenced accusers, and ordained “clearly unsuitable men into the priesthood.” [From the Catholic News no less](http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=40386) The church has big problems recruiting as well. Single figure entry levels for the last few years IIRC. Al that said there is still a lot of social conservative feeling in Ireland due to the legacy of Catholicism We’ve had divorce for not too long and abortion other than when protecting the life of the mother is still illegal here. Thousands upon thousands of Irish women make the short trip across the Irish Sea every year however to have one in the Britain. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/7 "2005-10-26T21:59:16Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > If they have little or no attendence, how do they afford to do charitable work? From [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church\_of\_England[Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > As of 2005 the Church of England had estimated total outgoings of around £900 million. > > Historically, individual parishes both raised and spent the vast majority of the Church’s funding…Since the mid-19th century, however, the Church has made various moves to equalise the situation… the Church moved the majority of its income-generating assets (which in the past included a great deal of land, but today mostly take the form of financial stocks and bonds) out of the hands of individual clergy and bishops to the care of a body called the Church Commissioners…These funds amount to around £3.9 billion and generate income of around £164 million each year (as of 2003), around a fifth of the Church’s overall income. > > The Church Commissioners give some of this money as grants to local parishes; but the majority of the financial burden of church upkeep and the work of local parishes still rests with individual parish and diocese, which meet their requirements from donations. Direct donations to the church (not including legacies) come to around £460 million per year, while parish and diocese reserve funds generate another £100 million. > > Although asset-rich, the Church of England has to look after and maintain its thousands of churches nationwide — the lion’s share of England’s built heritage. As current congregation numbers stand at relatively low levels and as maintenance bills increase as the buildings grow older, many of these churches cannot maintain economic self-sufficiency; but their historical and architectural importance make it difficult to sell them. The short answer - because the Church of England owns a helluva lot of stuff, and has done for centuries. But it won’t last in its current state. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/8 "2005-10-26T22:11:43Z")
As a British guy born and bred, I think i’d have to agree - If I have to put my religion down on forms, I have in the past put CofE because my family has a history of that. None of my extended family go to church, except my cousins and their parents, who are pretty strong protestants. From what i’ve seen (so opinion, here) i’d say that there are a lot of people who’d describe themselves as CofE but who don’t go to church and just have vague beliefs in that direction. The second religion of the UK is, IIRC, Hinduism, but my friends who are Hindu, however, seem to definetly hold those beliefs: i’ve never yet met a person who described themselves as Hindu but wasn’t committed to that religion. Same goes for Muslims. On reflection, I don’t think I know that many Jews. (just going through all the major ones, here, so I apologise if I didn’t mention yours). > [@Liberal](#): > > If they have little or no attendence, how do they afford to do charitable work? Like GorillaMan said, the CofE do own a hell of a lot of stuff (pardon the pun). On top of that, though, it’s not just christians that’ll respond to doing charitable work; if it’s known there’s going to be some kind of drive or event for charity, a lot of people are going to turn up or volunteer no matter what their religion. Quite often, in fact, you’ll get a “team effort” between the local churches, mosques, synagogues, etc. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/9 "2005-10-26T22:23:27Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > The second religion of the UK is, IIRC, Hinduism It’s [Islam](http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=293) - 2.7% self-identified as such in the 2001 census. (Looking at that page, I’m surprised at the size of those giving no religion or not answering) > [@](#): > > On reflection, I don’t think I know that many Jews. (just going through all the major ones, here, so I apologise if I didn’t mention yours). For historical reasons, the presence of British Jews is far less obvious than that of Muslims, Hindus etc. But they’re certainly there, you probably just don’t realise you know them, in the same way as you’ve no reason to notice that a colleague or acquaintance is Catholic, or Mormon, or whatever. Another thought: the self-identification as CofE is somewhat similar to the ‘secular Jew’ tag which I’ve occassionally heard used by Americans. ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/10 "2005-10-26T22:49:58Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > If they have little or no attendence, how do they afford to do charitable work? In Germany, they raise taxes. Recognized denominations have the right to set a tax that the states will collect from their members. The states keep a certain percentage of the revenue to pay for the administrative costs. This also means that membership in religious organizations has a well-defined legal meaning. When you register your residence, you have to give your religious affiliation, if any. If you give one, this is reported to the organization. If it has set a tax, it will be taken out of your paycheck automatically. Of course you can choose “none”, but the denominations consider that binding. If you declared that you are out, you are out. Whether that bothers you is of course up to you. The revenues from the taxes are relatively high because many people who have been baptized as children just remain members and pay automatically. This is one reason why German dioceses are pretty wealthy. e.g. Cologne is the richest Catholic diocese in the world, reportedly even with a higher budget than the Vatican (but it is hard to know for sure because they don’t have to disclose that to anyone.) ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/11 "2005-10-26T22:57:51Z")
Wow. There is nothing like what **kellner** describes here and if there was there would be very few members 😉 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/12 "2005-10-26T23:04:12Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Wow. There is nothing like what **kellner** describes here and if there was there would be very few members 😉 Likewise! ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/13 "2005-10-26T23:22:00Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s Islam - 2.7% self-identified as such in the 2001 census. (Looking at that page, I’m surprised at the size of those giving no religion or not answering) Fair enough. I wouldn’t say it was that surprising, really - Like it’s been said earlier, we’re not really that secular a country. And remember, a good amount of those in the “no religion” section are part of a widespread and valid religion that has yet to recieve the recognition it deserves: > [@](#): > > No religion includes people who ticked ‘None’ at the religion question plus those who wrote in **Jedi Knight** , Agnostic, Atheist and Heathen and those who ticked ‘Other’ but did not write in any religion. > [@](#): > > For historical reasons, the presence of British Jews is far less obvious than that of Muslims, Hindus etc. But they’re certainly there, you probably just don’t realise you know them, in the same way as you’ve no reason to notice that a colleague or acquaintance is Catholic, or Mormon, or whatever. Probably true. I don’t usually get into religious conversations with my friends, so it’s likely given the scores in the census I know a couple. I guess if you don’t talk with people about it, the only visual cues to being jewish are wearing a kippah or circumcision…and I’m really _not_ going to ask to check the second one 😛 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/14 "2005-10-26T23:23:35Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Most people in England (I’ll restrict myself to talking about the one country) will, if asked, describe themselves as CofE. But whether that means they _are_ religious is another matter. I know people who describe themselves as such, but do not believe in a virgin birth, or in the resurrection, or in heaven or hell, or in miracles…there comes a point at which ‘Church of England’ is a label they’re happy to attach to themselves, because the alternative is to ask themselves some very complicated questions. In one of Robert Anton Wilson’s novels, _Masks of the Illuminati,_ set in Edwardian Britain, he notes that it has been said of the C of E “that it is a very accommodating church, in that it interferes neither with a man’s politics nor with his religion.” ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/15 "2005-10-26T23:27:08Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Fair enough. I wouldn’t say it was that surprising, really - Like it’s been said earlier, we’re not really that secular a country. Sorry, I wasn’t clear - I was surprised how _large_ the proportion giving ‘no religion’ was. > [@](#): > > I guess if you don’t talk with people about it, the only visual cues to being jewish are wearing a kippah or circumcision There’s also names. Jewish immigrants have at various times opted for Anglicised names, and so aren’t very obvious. Whereas ‘Mohammed’ or ‘Singh’ are pretty clear indications of a particular religious background. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/16 "2005-10-26T23:29:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > In one of Robert Anton Wilson’s novels, _Masks of the Illuminati,_ set in Edwardian Britain, he notes that it has been said of the C of E “that it is a very accommodating church, in that it interferes neither with a man’s politics nor with his religion.” There’s also Eddie Izzard’s absolutely priceless _“Cake or Death”_ routine. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/17 "2005-10-26T23:49:24Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Probably true. I don’t usually get into religious conversations with my friends, so it’s likely given the scores in the census I know a couple. I guess if you don’t talk with people about it, the only visual cues to being jewish are wearing a kippah or circumcision…and I’m really _not_ going to ask to check the second one 😛 At least in the US, most Conservative and Reform Jews only wear kippot at synagogue or while praying (that’s what Mr. Neville and I do). You wouldn’t know I was Jewish if you saw me on the street, unless I happened to be wearing some Judaica jewelry on that particular day (sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t). Mr. Neville wears a chai all the time, but he wears it under his shirt, so you wouldn’t know he was Jewish from looking at him. Also in the US, being circumcised isn’t even a good indicator of being Jewish. [77 percent of US male babies were circumcised at birth](http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/). Ironically enough, fewer Jewish male babies were probably circumcised in the hospital at birth, since we have a circumcision ritual that is supposed to take place eight days after birth, and is supposed to be done by the father (almost no one does this, AFAIK) or a [mohel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohel), not just by any doctor. So, if you _did_ check and find that your friends were circumcised, they might not be Jewish, but just Yanks. 😃 Not all Jews have stereotypically Jewish names, either- our last name is not stereotypically Jewish (Neville isn’t our real name, but our real name isn’t very Jewish, either). Both of us have first names that are fairly common among non-Jews. That’s not at all surprising in my case, since I converted to Judaism as an adult, but Mr. Neville’s first name isn’t obviously Jewish, either. We’re hiding everywhere! ;j ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/18 "2005-10-27T00:09:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Also in the US, being circumcised isn’t even a good indicator of being Jewish. 77 percent of US male babies were circumcised at birth. Holy crap! You could make a mountain out of that much foreskin! (Put nasty mental image in people’s heads - Check.) ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/19 "2005-10-27T07:58:39Z")
> [@kellner](#): > > In Germany, they raise taxes. Recognized denominations have the right to set a tax that the states will collect from their members. The states keep a certain percentage of the revenue to pay for the administrative costs. This also means that membership in religious organizations has a well-defined legal meaning. When you register your residence, you have to give your religious affiliation, if any. If you give one, this is reported to the organization. If it has set a tax, it will be taken out of your paycheck automatically. Of course you can choose “none”, but the denominations consider that binding. If you declared that you are out, you are out. Whether that bothers you is of course up to you. > The revenues from the taxes are relatively high because many people who have been baptized as children just remain members and pay automatically. This is one reason why German dioceses are pretty wealthy. e.g. Cologne is the richest Catholic diocese in the world, reportedly even with a higher budget than the Vatican (but it is hard to know for sure because they don’t have to disclose that to anyone.) Holy cow. I… I don’t know what to say about that. Except maybe there’s no wonder religion levels are so low. It’s like you have two governments. I wonder whether papers attempting to ascertain why religion is on the wane in Europe take things like this into account. I would definitely report that I have no religion. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2005, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056/20 "2005-10-27T08:59:03Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Holy cow. I… I don’t know what to say about that. Except maybe there’s no wonder religion levels are so low. It’s like you have two governments. I wonder whether papers attempting to ascertain why religion is on the wane in Europe take things like this into account. I would definitely report that I have no religion. It’s not as significant as that IMO. (German) Church tax is just 8% or 9% (depending on what state you are in) of income tax [i.e. 8% or 9% of income tax owed, not 8% or 9% of income]. Noticeable but perfectly ignorable for most people - a lot of people who only show up in church for baptism, confirmation, wedding and burial are have no problem with paying, if only to support the church as a community organization and a part of their cultural identity. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-irreligious-is-europe-british-isles-really/328056.md?page=2)