# How is a biological male feeling female different from me feeling like Napoleon? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 28, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608 "2010-04-28T06:13:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/41 "2010-04-28T18:13:11Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Because, generally, when we consider what makes up a person the mind and brain are tended to be considered to be the seat of the self, and the most important part. Lose a part of your body, and you’re considered the same person, but with a bit missing. Lose a part of your brain, or your mind, and you may well not be considered the same person at all. In general, it doesn’t seem all that unreasonable to say that so far as priorities go, the brain and mind should take priority over the body, so far as altering bits goes. We currently give hormone treatment to help alter the body which certainly affects how the brain reacts and thinks. What I was suggesting is that we fix the brain early on (at or near birth) with hormone/gene therapy to correspond with the body. To the extent this is possible is the question. Attempting to alter the body to resemble something else should be termed Michael Jackson therapy because the results are difficult to do correctly and impossible to replicate functionally. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/42 "2010-04-28T18:16:47Z")
One difference is a practical one: A transgendered person can function well enough in society. A person who imagines he is Napoleon cannot. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/43 "2010-04-28T18:17:49Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Pro tip: trangender is an adjective. It is not a verb. It is not a noun. The -ed and -s endings? Not correct. > > Carry on. Nevertheless, I believe “transgendered person,” not “transgender person,” is the correct formulation. (It would simplify things to use “tranny,” but **Eve,** in other threads, has mentioned that word is taken offensively, like an ethnic slur. Say, I haven’t seen **Eve** on the boards in a while.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/44 "2010-04-28T18:32:43Z")
What happened to the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/45 "2010-04-28T19:06:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What happened to the OP? Sorry, I wrote the original post, then went to bed and woke up to several errands demanding attention. > [@DerTrihs](#): > > The transgendered however are perfectly correct in feeling that their body and brain gender don’t match. That’s not a matter of opinion, it’s a medical fact. Surely this doesn’t always hold true. There must be at least SOME delusional transgenders, right? Can we even identify a medical reason for most transgenders to feel the way they do? Your argument here isn’t very convincing to me, but I could be convinced with the utilitarian viewpoint of “surgery works, psychotherapy doesn’t.” Even so, I’m not convinced that psychotherapy CAN’T work, just that we haven’t learned enough about the condition to honestly decide whether it’s medical or psychological, and if it’s the later, exactly what to do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/46 "2010-04-28T19:08:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > One difference is a practical one: A transgendered person can function well enough in society. A person who imagines he is Napoleon cannot. We had a paranoid schizophrenic on the boards here who would argue against this point. I have forgotten that person’s name, but they were pretty convincing. Why exactly couldn’t a delusional person function well enough in society? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/47 "2010-04-28T19:11:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is the right model, I think. Even if we were to concede that pre-op transgender folks are suffering from some massive delusion, it’s clearly not a delusion that’s amenable to therapy. Reassignment surgery can permit them to live a happier life, and be, post-op, a relatively unremarkable member of society. > > What factors weigh against sexual reassignment surgery? How is liposuction or breast augmentation surgery acceptable? (Assuming the OP thinks they are.) I don’t think any type of treatment is unacceptable. Lipo and breast augmentation are no different from gender reassignment, and I have no particular problem with any of them. My concern is that gender reassignment is being used as treatment for what might possibly be a psychological disorder. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/48 "2010-04-28T19:20:57Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I don’t think any type of treatment is unacceptable. Lipo and breast augmentation are no different from gender reassignment, and I have no particular problem with any of them. My concern is that gender reassignment is being used as treatment for what might possibly be a psychological disorder. But you are basing that on something called a “biological male”. What is that? Also, wouldn’t it be possible that the woman who wants bigger breasts is also suffering from a psychological condition? Maybe she just needs therapy to accept her body as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/49 "2010-04-28T19:32:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But you are basing that on something called a “biological male”. What is that? > > Also, wouldn’t it be possible that the woman who wants bigger breasts is also suffering from a psychological condition? Maybe she just needs therapy to accept her body as it is. Do you agree that gender reassignment is used as treatment? Do you also agree that breast augmentation typically is not? If so, what exactly are we arguing? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/50 "2010-04-28T19:38:38Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Do you agree that gender reassignment is used as treatment? Do you also agree that breast augmentation typically is not? If so, what exactly are we arguing? OK, forget the analogy. Define what a “biological male” is. I believe the issue you are raising stems from a mistaken belief that there is a clear cut biological line between “male” and “female”. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/51 "2010-04-28T19:40:22Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I predict much scoffing and exaggeratedly sad shaking of heads in this thread, followed by little or no answer to the question. > > ETA: though I didn’t see horsetech’s link just now – that’s informative. FYI, links to that study have been posted in every single thread we’ve ever had on this topic. We’ve also never had a thread on this topic that didn’t include some variation on, “Well, if he can think he’s a woman, why can’t I think I’m a \?” This fallacy has also been addressed every time it’s brought up. And here is the rebuttal again: Transsexuals, barring other issues, are not delusional. They are well aware of what sort of body they have. They want to have a different body, because they feel they would be happier that way, but they are under no illusions about the physical reality they inhabit. To fix the comparison in the OP, we would have to change, “thinks he’s Napoleon,” to, “would rather be Emperor of France than a file clerk in Scranton.” Which does not strike me as particularly crazy. Despite having rebutted this argument again, I have very little doubt that we will see someone else come along later in the thread to post yet another variation of the OP’s fallacy. I say this because this, too, has happened in every single thread we’ve ever had on the topic. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/52 "2010-04-28T19:42:15Z")
Short answer: Transgendered thoughts, identities, actions, whatever are in conflict with the traditional heterosexual lifestyles. Homosexual activists could either have an ally or an enemy in the fight. Why make enemies? Were it not for this political motivation, men who thought they were women would be in the same padded cell with those men who those they were the King of Denmark. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/53 "2010-04-28T19:43:29Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I don’t think any type of treatment is unacceptable. Lipo and breast augmentation are no different from gender reassignment, and I have no particular problem with any of them. My concern is that gender reassignment is being used as treatment for what might possibly be a psychological disorder. As far as I am aware, transgendered people go through quite a bit of therapy, years of it in most cases, to make as sure as possible that they are in fact “transgender” and not “delusional”. For example–I have a friend who is midway through the process of changing from male to female. She has been in therapy and discussions for well over ten years, and only started hormone therapy about two years ago (IIRC, it may have been yet more recent). ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/54 "2010-04-28T19:44:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > FYI, links to that study have been posted in every single thread we’ve ever had on this topic. We’ve also never had a thread on this topic that didn’t include some variation on, “Well, if he can think he’s a woman, why can’t I think I’m a \?” This fallacy has also been addressed every time it’s brought up. And here is the rebuttal again: Transsexuals, barring other issues, are not delusional. They are well aware of what sort of body they have. They want to have a different body, because they feel they would be happier that way, but they are under no illusions about the physical reality they inhabit. To fix the comparison in the OP, we would have to change, “thinks he’s Napoleon,” to, “would rather be Emperor of France than a file clerk in Scranton.” Which does not strike me as particularly crazy. > > Despite having rebutted this argument again, I have very little doubt that we will see someone else come along later in the thread to post yet another variation of the OP’s fallacy. I say this because this, too, has happened in every single thread we’ve ever had on the topic. Disagree. They don’t say “I wish I was a woman.” They claim they are women, have surgery and changed their name to a feminine name. How is that different than me wearing a 19th century French general’s uniform and speaking with a French accent? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/55 "2010-04-28T19:44:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, forget the analogy. > > Define what a “biological male” is. I believe the issue you are raising stems from a mistaken belief that there is a clear cut biological line between “male” and “female”. Gender is pretty binary, isn’t it? Testicles and a penis = male, ovaries, uterus, and a vagina = female. How many transgendered people don’t have one combination or the other? I know there are a few outliers that are missing some or have a combination of both, but I was under the impression that almost everyone fits comfortably within one of the two descriptions. Maybe I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/56 "2010-04-28T19:45:17Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I don’t think any type of treatment is unacceptable. Lipo and breast augmentation are no different from gender reassignment, and I have no particular problem with any of them. My concern is that gender reassignment is being used as treatment for what might possibly be a psychological disorder. Ok. I don’t agree, but let’s say I accept your characterization. Since even you acknowledge that, at present, we don’t have a suitable psychological treatment for the psychological disorder, it seems clear we should continue to provide the most effective treatment at hand - surgery - until such time as a workable psychological treatment appears. Yes? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/57 "2010-04-28T19:46:52Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Short answer: Transgendered thoughts, identities, actions, whatever are in conflict with the traditional heterosexual lifestyles. Homosexual activists could either have an ally or an enemy in the fight. Why make enemies? > > Were it not for this political motivation, men who thought they were women would be in the same padded cell with those men who those they were the King of Denmark. How do you explain the myriad of heterosexual supporters of transgender rights, then? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/58 "2010-04-28T19:49:16Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > As far as I am aware, transgendered people go through quite a bit of therapy, years of it in most cases, to make as sure as possible that they are in fact “transgender” and not “delusional”. What kind of treatment is effective or available for the people who are delusional? What kind of doctors analyzed your friend to decide which category she fit in? If transgenderism (is that a word?) really is medical and not psychological, wouldn’t there be a medical test or observation that would identify it straight away? Otherwise, how could anyone have possibly determined it’s a medical condition? ---
**Author:** ![Huerta88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/82dd89/32.png) [@Huerta88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Huerta88)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/59 "2010-04-28T19:54:28Z")
> [@SecondJudith](#): > > Because most of the time, it doesn’t work and they end up killing themselves? And sometimes when their “true natures” are indulged – they still end up killing themselves. > **[Archive blogs](https://www.latimes.com/archives/blogs/)** > > Los Angeles Times blogs that were published between 2006 and 2013. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608/60 "2010-04-28T19:54:38Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Disagree. They don’t say “I wish I was a woman.” They claim they are women, have surgery and changed their name to a feminine name. None of that is delusional. You can argue that it’s some other expression of mental illness, but a delusion is an inability to recognize physical reality. Transsexuals know that they were not born physically female. They often claim that they are _mentally_ female. Post-mortem studies on transsexuals have demonstrated that there is physical evidence that backs up this claim, but as this can only be demonstrated through dissection, this is not a provable claim one way or the other so long as they are alive, and as such cannot be accurately described as “delusional.” > [@](#): > > How is that different than me wearing a 19th century French general’s uniform and speaking with a French accent? It’s not. Wearing a uniform and speaking with a French accent are not evidence of mental illness. If you like to dress and speak like Napoleon, but are well aware that you were born Joe Blow of Tulsa, Oklahoma, then you are not delusional, you just have odd fashion sense. You’re also wrong about transgender rights being a ploy by the gay rights lobby. The sad fact is, mainstream gay rights groups are generally pretty hostile towards transsexuals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-a-biological-male-feeling-female-different-from-me-feeling-like-napoleon/537608.md?page=4)