# How is anti-wokeism different from sexism and/or racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2023, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604 "2023-02-11T01:12:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/41 "2023-02-12T09:49:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > If you are criticising the concept of reparations, then you are criticising the concept of reparations. You aren’t criticising “wokeness.” I agree, as I said, criticism of any specific policy _associated_ with the concept of “wokeness” is not necessarily evidence of bigotry, racism, sexism etc. but… > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > woke, in itself, means nothing more than _awareness_ of systematic injustices and prejudices. Good luck with keeping the definitional purity of that term and avoiding the scope-creep that naturally comes from both sides when it suits their purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/42 "2023-02-12T10:42:20Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Good luck with keeping the definitional purity of that term and avoiding the scope-creep that naturally comes from both sides when it suits their purpose. …but it isn’t “scope creep.” Just like Critical Race Theory, the shift in definitions is entirely intentional and has been engineered as part of a greater “culture war.” And they’ve defined it in a way that (as can be demonstrated in this very thread) that it can mean anything that they like. As in “I know it when I see it.” You are free to accept a nonsensical definition if you like. That doesn’t make the definition any less nonsensical. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/43 "2023-02-12T17:32:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …but it isn’t “scope creep.” Just like Critical Race Theory, the shift in definitions is entirely intentional and has been engineered as part of a greater “culture war.” And they’ve defined it in a way that (as can be demonstrated in this very thread) that it can mean anything that they like. As in “I know it when I see it.” Oh I think it is selective scope creep clearly from both sides. It is a malleable term that can be expanded at will as the agenda suits. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > You are free to accept a nonsensical definition if you like. That doesn’t make the definition any less nonsensical. I think your original definition of “woke” was fine, where it focused on awareness of inequalities. However I think the time has long since passed where that definition is the one and only one in use by all sides. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/44 "2023-02-12T17:34:28Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Oh I think it is selective scope creep clearly from both sides. “Both sides do it.” 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/45 "2023-02-12T17:50:12Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “Both sides do it.” People on all sides _certainly_ expand and extrapolate from the core definition of woke which Banquet Bear stated above… > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > _awareness_ of systematic injustices and prejudices. I wouldn’t have thought that observation was particularly controversial. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/46 "2023-02-12T17:52:27Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > People on all sides _certainly_ expand and extrapolate from the core definition of woke which Banquet Bear stated above… How has the left changed the definition of “woke” to suit a political purpose? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/47 "2023-02-12T18:01:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How has the left changed the definition of “woke” to suit a political purpose? I didn’t say “changed” I talked about expansion. There’s a whole section on “Broadening Usage” within the Wiki link already provided that speaks to this. Again, I find it strange that this would be a controversial observation. Do you think the “left” (whoever they are) stick strictly to the very specific definition of > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > _awareness_ of systematic injustices and prejudices. and do not expand beyond that? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/48 "2023-02-12T20:00:46Z")
Hardly anyone on the left even uses the word any more. Can there be a more egregious example of “bothsideism” when only one side is using the term? Just as with CRT, it’s just a persistent poisoned well now, where the right can just file anything under “woke” and that’s enough reason to shut it down. And even supposed free speech advocates will cheer and whoop. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/49 "2023-02-12T20:56:01Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Oh I think it is selective scope creep clearly from both sides. …you don’t even know who “both sides” are in this discussion. When exactly did Black people expand the use of the term to suit their agenda? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > However I think the time has long since passed where that definition is the one and only one in use by all sides. It hasn’t been a “long time.” The word and phrase had its origins in the 1930’s. It wasn’t until 2020, when it was co-opted to use as an insult, then in the last year when it was co-opted to mean “anything progressive”. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Do you think the “left” (whoever they are) stick strictly to the very specific definition of > > > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > > > _awareness_ of systematic injustices and prejudices. > > and do not expand beyond that? It’s not “left vs right.” It’s “black vs white.” It wasn’t a “leftist” word. It was derived from AAVE. And it was used by Black people the very same way since the 30’s. It is still being used by Black people the very same way **now**. Any expansion on the use of the word didn’t come from the people who had almost exclusively used that word prior to 2014. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/50 "2023-02-12T21:59:27Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …you don’t even know who “both sides” are in this discussion. > > When exactly did Black people expand the use of the term to suit their agenda? It should be more correctly “all sides” rather than “both sides” (which indeed I corrected in the second quote of mine you used), there are far more than two points of view on the concept of “woke” > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It’s not “left vs right.” I absolutely agree, I know many left-leaning people here in the UK who are no fans of the term or the expanded definition thereof. Feel free to correct Czarcasm and Mijin, They seem keen to raise it as a specific political left v right issue. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It hasn’t been a “long time.” The word and phrase had its origins in the 1930’s. It wasn’t until 2020, when it was co-opted to use as an insult, then in the last year when it was co-opted to mean “anything progressive”. I suggest you read your own wiki cite, particularly the bit that refers to the hisory of the “Broadening Usage”. If you are suggesting it had some definitional purity up until 2020, in line with your own preferred definition, I think you are mistaken. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It is still being used by Black people the very same way **now**. Any expansion on the use of the word didn’t come from the people who had almost exclusively used that word prior to 2014. But words don’t have intrinsic and unchanging definitions, they have _usages_. If you want to suggest that it _should_ retain the orginal definition and it still _only_ means what the original black coinage intended, then good luck to you. That ship has sailed. Complain to those that initially co-opted the word and expanded its remit. Your comment above pretty much concedes that an expansion of some kind _has_ happened, as does the wiki article you cited. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/51 "2023-02-12T22:06:27Z")
There is a difference between natural expansion/clarification of a word, and deliberate corruption of a word. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/52 "2023-02-12T22:29:28Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It should be more correctly “all sides” rather than “both sides” (which indeed I corrected in the second quote of mine you used), there are far more than two points of view on the concept of “woke” …nah, there aren’t really more than two points of view here. You’ve got the original usage. And then you’ve got it being used as a pejorative: a catch-all for everything progressive. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I know many left-leaning people here in the UK who are no fans of the term or the expanded definition thereof. Really? How much was the term even used in the UK prior to 2021? The term had it’s origins in the Black American community and it was almost exclusively used in the Black American community until the rise of Black Lives Matters. I’m struggling to find any use of the word in the UK prior to 2020 outside of the fact it was added to the dictionary in 2017. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I suggest you read your own wiki cite, particularly the bit that refers to the hisory of the “Broadening Usage”. If you are suggesting it had some definitional purity up until 2020, in line with your own preferred definition, I think you are mistaken. The broadened usage has been to use it as an insult and to use it as a catch-all for anything progressive. It surged in popularity in the 2010’s, but it wasn’t until 2019/2020 that the term started to be widely used ironically, and only in the last year when people started to use it to describe everything progressive. I’m not mistaken. Its all right there in the wiki cite. It hasn’t been “a long time.” > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > But words don’t have intrinsic and unchanging definitions, they have _usages_. And the word is being used by racists, misogynists, white supremacists, as a pejorative in the frontline of their culture war. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > If you want to suggest that it _should_ retain the orginal definition and it still _only_ means what the original black coinage intended, then good luck to you. I’m suggesting that we recognize exactly what the racists, misogynists, white supremacists are doing, that we call it out loudly and clearly, and that we do everything we can to stop them co-opting the word “woke” the very same way they co-opted the words “critical race theory” which they are using to ban books, to remove Black history from the curriculum, to sanitize the racist history of the founding of America. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Complain to those that initially co-opted the word and expanded its remit. What is it exactly do you think we are doing here? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Your comment above pretty much concedes that an expansion of some kind _has_ happened, as does the wiki article you cited. I’ve never disputed that the the racists, misogynists, white supremacists have taken the word and deliberately used it incorrectly for the purposes of furthering their agenda. I just don’t think we need to buy into that agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/53 "2023-02-12T22:44:26Z")
Pakman just posted a good summary of the state of play of “woke”. It’s just a term like “socialism” where the people who are most against it really have no idea what it actually means. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/3AXBiSheGwY/maxresdefault.jpg "They Don't Even Know What "Woke" Means") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AXBiSheGwY) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/54 "2023-02-12T22:49:44Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I think your original definition of “woke” was fine, where it focused on awareness of inequalities. However I think the time has long since passed where that definition is the one and only one in use by all sides. Right, now it’s only used by one side. Because the other side constantly lies about it. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/55 "2023-02-12T22:50:03Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I know many left-leaning people here in the UK who are no fans of the term or the expanded definition thereof. Feel free to correct Czarcasm and Mijin, They seem keen to raise it as a specific political left v right issue. I’m British as well, and this is perhaps why I see it as even more of a political issue than some other people here. Because, in British English, it seems to have been adopted as the new “political correctness gone mad”. Those same fuckdumb articles in the Telegraph or Mail now prefer to attach the word “woke”. I think they are delighted to have a quick and easy word to tag this kind of manufactured outrage. Now you supposedly can’t say Christmas any more because _woke_. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/56 "2023-02-12T23:18:58Z")
Yeah, 99% of the time I see someone complaining about “wokeism,” they’re an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/57 "2023-02-12T23:46:39Z")
I think for me, there seems to be a certain preachiness or sanctimoniousness to people who self-identify as “woke”, and that turns me right off. I mean, I’m not hostile at all to any of what they’re saying, but I sure resent the fuck out of someone up on their high horse telling me what I should and shouldn’t think, and that if I don’t think the same exact way they do, then I’m _wrong_ and need to be re-educated. That, I think is what rubs people the wrong way, and what President Obama was warning against in his challenges of “woke” culture. It’s just like preachy obnoxious vegans; their points aren’t necessarily bad, but a lot of them are insufferable as fuck when they start making them. TL;DR, it’s not _what_ they’re saying that people object to, it’s how they go about saying it that pisses people off. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/58 "2023-02-12T23:51:16Z")
> [@bump](#): > > TL;DR, it’s not _what_ they’re saying that people object to, it’s how they go about saying it that pisses people off. …can you give us any examples? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/59 "2023-02-12T23:59:04Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I think for me, there seems to be a certain preachiness or sanctimoniousness to people who self-identify as “woke”, and that turns me right off. See, here’s the thing: I am not aware of _anyone_ who self-identifies as “woke.” The _only_ time I see “woke” come up is when bigots (usually racist, homophobic, transphobic) use it to conjure up some boogeyman, as “woke” itself has become. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2023, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/60 "2023-02-12T23:59:42Z")
Note that one cannot declare about _oneself_ that one is “woke”, or not an asshole, or whatever. That is for others to judge… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604.md?page=4)