# How is anti-wokeism different from sexism and/or racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2023, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604 "2023-02-11T01:12:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/121 "2023-02-13T19:06:03Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > What an odd exchange. OK, I’ll go back to lurking on this thread. Is it really that odd?, it was just an observation that thoughts in the head do not necessarily manifest as actions in the real world. All of us would be in serious trouble if that were the case. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/122 "2023-02-13T19:10:39Z")
The meaning of “woke” has not been heretofore entirely stable. As recently as a couple of years ago it was a shorthand for overeager language tinkering and policing(e.g. contrived silliness like “Latinx”). As I object to that kind of thing, at the time I considered myself anti-woke. Then the chuds made “woke” into their rallying cry for opposing any and all things respectful of Black people or their struggles, so “anti-woke” is no longer for me. I’ll continue to grumble about silly contrived neologisms as I find appropriate, but not where it might undermine any real conversation about whether anti-Black discrimination exists and is important to talk about. It does and it is. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/123 "2023-02-13T19:13:27Z")
If they openly espoused that facet of their religion, yes. I’d make a rule, no talking religion in the office, which would apply to all. People who hold those views and similar ones will slowly but surely find themselves outcasts, unless they want to move to a theocracy. They sure as hell aren’t going to be allowed to turn us into one. I’ll give up my life in such a fight. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/124 "2023-02-13T21:25:56Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > a) only an _awareness_ of systematic injustices and prejudices (by the good guys) > b) only a pejorative used by adversarial political forces (by the bad guys) …yep. These are the two options. Although I wouldn’t use the word “good guys” or “bad guys” in _my_ definition. I tend to prefer my formal definitions to be as objective as possible. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No, you didn’t claim that, Yeah I did. That’s been my position all along. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > but you do seem to be claiming that it went from definition (a) to definition (b) with no intermediate steps. I dispute that. It hasn’t gone from “definition A to definition B.” Definition A hasn’t gone anywhere. Definition B has morphed from a simple pejorative to “I know it when I see it but its still a pejorative.” > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’d stick with option (a) above. A definition that you yourself provided and that I agree with. So within the Black community: yeah, that’s how they use the word. It hasn’t shifted. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/125 "2023-02-13T21:57:42Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …yep. These are the two options. Although I wouldn’t use the word “good guys” or “bad guys” in _my_ definition. I tend to prefer my formal definitions to be as objective as possible. They simply are not and asserting it is so don’t make it so. Your very own cites and references to the disagreement in this thread stand as testament to that. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Yeah I did. That’s been my position all along. You misunderstand, I’m agreeing that you _didn’t_ claim that it had magically morphed. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > It hasn’t gone from “definition A to definition B.” Definition A hasn’t gone anywhere. Definition B has morphed from a simple pejorative to “I know it when I see it but its still a pejorative.” And the definition and usage has also expanded from merely (a) to encompass many associated concepts and policies along the way. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/126 "2023-02-13T22:07:28Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > You’ll only see the word “woke” used once, but the article above fits a pattern where someone who has a slighly different take on racism is dismissed (“they’re an idiot”) and has a negative reaction. This pushes them onto, in some sense, the other team. My link is a great example of this. The author is in most ways progressive, but got pushed too far in terms of having to be on the progressive team in every way, and now has placed his complaint with the only kind of web site that would likley accept it, one that is right of center. Fascinating article. When I was in grad school for social work in '09 I was required to take a year-long sequence on American Racism. First the History of African American Racism and then a class on Anti-Racist Practice. My mentor/professor was an 84-year old Black conservative Civil Rights attorney married to a white woman. We were taught critical race theory. We read Derrick Bell and John Hope Franklin et al. I am a white woman. I talked a lot in those seminars. I was really grappling with a lot of the material because it was the first time I’d been exposed to concepts of systemic racism in-depth. Studying racism also helped me deal with systemic misogyny in my own life. It was a whole thing. A really positive thing for me personally. At the time you could hear rumblings. Some black students thought white students shouldn’t be talking so much. Some students thought the course should address all kinds of racism, not just the Black/white binary. Some people were mad we had a conservative Dean. But you know, people just felt comfortable saying these things. Maybe not to everyone, but to someone. I at no point felt like dialog was being shut down. And our professor would have these conversations without taking offense - can you be anti-racist and conservative? Can you be anti-racist and be married to a white woman? No topic was off limits and nobody was excluded from the conversation. And I probably said some pretty stupid things. But my professor was really adept at meeting students where they are and leading us along without losing anyone. You were really allowed to show up fully as yourself. I made tons of progress as as student both personally and professionally because of that seminar. Today I am able to do effective anti-racist work because of the foundations laid in that seminar. When I read that article, I think of my professor. I dunno exactly what happened. 2009 was not that long ago. But it seems like everything since has gone disastrously wrong. Because within a few years I ended up ditching that entire cohort of people on social media because of what I perceived as increasingly extremist rhetoric. Same for my same age peers. It just got toxic. I haven’t gone back to social media. That said, I have never in my life referred to myself as Woke or seen anyone else identify as such. Very occasionally I’d see the advice to “stay woke” but that didn’t seem to be an ingrained sense of one’s identity. I truly have no idea why conservatives are obsessed with a term that as far as I can tell was never in common usage on the left. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/127 "2023-02-13T22:29:08Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > They simply are not and asserting it is so don’t make it so. …they simply are and asserting that they are not don’t make it so. My very own cites and references in this thread stand as testament to that. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > And the definition and usage has also expanded from merely (a) to encompass many associated concepts and policies along the way. I mean, woke now means whatever the fuck you want it to mean now. Somebody literally said that “they know it when they see it” in this very thread. So in a thread like this it isn’t practical to be using multiple definitions. So if we stick to the original then yeah, anti-wokeism is indistinguishable from sexism and/or racism. However: if instead we use the pejorative usages of the term, then yes, anti-wokeism is indistinguishable from sexism and/or racism. So resolved: anti-wokeism is indistinguishable from sexism and/or racism. Glad we’ve cleared that one up. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/128 "2023-02-13T22:56:42Z")
> **Muhammad Hijack Hidden by What Exit?** > > > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > > Well I think […] their prophet was a paedophile. > > [hijack] But that part, which is based on an [ill-informed misinterpretation of available historical facts that we’ve been criticizing on these boards for decades,](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/okay-fine-islam-is-this-violent-evil-religion-what-do-you-want-us-to-do-about-it/736328/340) is basically just ignorant bigotry. > > A lot of us around here abominate ignorant bigotry, completely irrespective of whether it happens to offend devout Muslims. > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > It would also be false to claim, even in accordance with modern views of sexual morality, that Muhammad was in any sense a “pedophile” as modern medicine defines the term. Recall that the historical evidence about his married life strongly suggests that most of it was spent in happy and sexually fulfilling relationships with wives older than himself. And there’s no confirmation that he ever actually had sex with his child-bride while she was pre-pubescent (which would have been the definition for “too young for sex” according to most marital codes of the time). > > > > In short, the statement “Muhammad was a pedophile” is such a misleading distortion of the known historical evidence about his life that it basically amounts to a bigoted and ignorant slur. That’s not a good way to win any converts to your anti-religion stance who don’t already agree with you. > > [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/129 "2023-02-13T23:10:00Z")
> **Muhammad Hijack Hidden by What Exit?** > > > [@Kimstu](#): > > > > A lot of us around here abominate ignorant bigotry, completely irrespective of whether it happens to offend devout Muslims. > > According to the writings of Islam he married a wife and consumated the marriage while she was very young. If you disagree that that is the case then feel to take it up with the relevant Islamic scholars. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2023, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/130 "2023-02-13T23:14:46Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So in a thread like this it isn’t practical to be using multiple definitions. So if we stick to the original then yeah, anti-wokeism is indistinguishable from sexism and/or racism. > > However: if instead we use the pejorative usages of the term, then yes, anti-wokeism is indistinguishable from sexism and/or racism. Sure, if you get to choose your own definitions, disregard the ones that don’t fit with your preconceived notions and toss out the evidence provided by your own cites then of course you can come to whatever conclusion you first came in with. I fully understand why someone would choose that option. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/131 "2023-02-14T00:16:35Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > When I read that article, I think of my professor. Thank you for an excellent gentle response. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/132 "2023-02-14T01:58:16Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Sure, if you get to choose your own definitions, …but this is precisely what this thread is about. Woke means anything to the anti-woke. Literally anything. You can see that here in this thread. The so called “anti-woke” brigade cannot come up with a single, coherent, universally agreed definition of the word. It’s either used in its original context, or it is used as a pejorative. I’m not tossing out anything. When the anti-woke brigade can articulate a definition of the word fit for a dictionary that gets some sort of a consensus then maybe there is some basis for discussion. But absent that, either by the original definition or the pejorative form, I can’t see how the OP is anything but settled. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/133 "2023-02-14T03:13:28Z")
My issue wasn’t with the fact that we had to be LGBTQ friendly as part of the job, it was that they spent an inordinate amount of time and money basically pushing a specific viewpoint that was independent of how we were to perform our jobs. And in particular at one point, there was a sort of… progression or taxonomy of how LGBTQ friendly you were, based on your attitudes/thinking. It was a series of descriptors like “hostile, unfriendly, neutral, accepting, and celebrating” or something along those lines, with example behaviors of how each of those played out. We were told that essentially if we weren’t at the end stage of “celebration”, that how we thought about these things was wrong, and that we needed to work toward that end stage of celebration. It wasn’t “These are the University’s values, and this is how you need to behave in order to successfully perform your job.” which is exactly what I would expect. Rather it was very clearly an attempt to indoctrinate us in a specific way of thinking and a specific set of values by way of our job training. And with the cherry on top of being told that most of us were wrong in how we think, and that we need to work on it. It didn’t matter that it happened to be LGBTQ rights- had it been religion, race relations, disability rights, etc… it would have been offensive. I didn’t appreciate being told how I _should_ be thinking in the context of performing a job where the university’s policy and values as they related to our job were basically to treat everyone equally regardless of race, creed, color, sexual orientation, religion or anything else like that, not that we had to celebrate anything. It was 100% the idea that they essentially had an end-state thought goal that we ‘needed to work toward’ that got under my skin. It wasn’t the LGBTQ part of it at all- I wasn’t particularly homophobic at the time, and I’m even less so now. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/134 "2023-02-14T03:40:19Z")
I would still like to see some non-anecdotal examples that can be checked. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/135 "2023-02-14T08:25:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Woke means anything to the anti-woke. And the same is true for many of those who do or would have considered themselves to be “woke”. Definitions aren’t static no matter how much you insist on it. You may decry it but it is undeniable that the term “woke” broadened in usage, taking on many additional ideas, policies and practices over the years, some of those can legitimately be seen as unhelpful and harmful and if it is that expanded remit of “woke” that an anti-wokeism proponant is arguing against then no, the OP is anything but settled. We could have had a carbon-copy thread regarding feminism and anti-feminism for exactly the same reasons as above with exactly the same conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/136 "2023-02-14T09:42:17Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > And the same is true for many of those who do or would have considered themselves to be “woke”. …cite please. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/137 "2023-02-14T09:48:54Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …cite please. You provided the cite yourself. There is a whole section in there on origin and usage and also the broadening of the usage beyond the original core meaning. Elements of which are undertaken by people who are not “anti-wokeism” It is clear you don’t accept that that has happened. Take up that alleged error with wikipedia. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/138 "2023-02-14T09:56:15Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You provided the cite yourself. …not a cite for “broadened usage.” A cite that the same is true for many of those who do or would have considered themselves to be “woke”. And a couple of random examples won’t cut it. Although I’ll be impressed if you actually found a couple of random examples easily. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/139 "2023-02-14T10:43:01Z")
read through your own cite and look at what is contained in those sections I referred to and the people referred to within it. Or read [Vox’s](https://www.vox.com/culture/21437879/stay-woke-wokeness-history-origin-evolution-controversy) article on the matter. There are multiple examples given within that. Or the [Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/09/woke-word-meaning-definition-progressive), on the same topic and with multiple people giving differing definitions and usages. It is an endlessly malleable term for people of all sides. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/140 "2023-02-14T11:25:20Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Or read [Vox’s](https://www.vox.com/culture/21437879/stay-woke-wokeness-history-origin-evolution-controversy) article on the matter. There are multiple examples given within that. …I didn’t see a single example. Can you give me their name? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Or the [Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/09/woke-word-meaning-definition-progressive), on the same topic and with multiple people giving differing definitions and usages. For goodness sakes. That article asks Thomas Friggen Chatterton Williams. The Harpers Letter guy. You know, the “anti-woke/anti-cancel culture” Harpers letter. No, Thomas Friggen Chatterton Williams does not consider himself woke. The task was to find people that “considered themselves woke” who were using definitions that fell outside of the provided definitions. So that _starts_ with finding people that consider themselves woke. You can’t even do that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604.md?page=8)