# How is anti-wokeism different from sexism and/or racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2023, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604 "2023-02-11T01:12:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/141 "2023-02-14T11:57:05Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I didn’t see a single example. Can you give me their name? Then I have to assume you have not read the article. There are multiple quotes and tweets in there, all attributed to specific people. The article is all about the evolution of the term. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > For goodness sakes. That article asks Thomas Friggen Chatterton Williams Why would you pull one person out of that article and ignore the rest? Are you dismissing the views of the rest of them as well? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/142 "2023-02-14T12:08:05Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Then I have to assume you have not read the article. There are multiple quotes and tweets in there, all attributed to specific people. The article is all about the evolution of the term. …concession accepted. We aren’t talking about the evolution of the term. I asked for a cite the same is true for many of those who do or would have considered themselves to be “woke”. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Why would you pull one person out of that article and ignore the rest? Are you dismissing the views of the rest of them as well? Which one of the other people in the article consider themselves woke? Bhaskar Sunkara, who considers “Language on the left can be a problem?” Zaid Jilani, who thinks that " word woke loosely refers to a social media-fueled, leftwing political ideology that emerged in the English-speaking world in the early 2010s?" Are you telling me Jilani considers themselves woke? He sounds pretty anti-woke to me. I said I’d be impressed if you actually found a couple of random examples easily. Consider me not impressed. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/143 "2023-02-14T12:32:24Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …concession accepted. None offered. You have the names and you have the literature. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > We aren’t talking about the evolution of the term. I am, You don’t accept that it has happened by people from all sides and you’ve been presented with cites on exactly that subject. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Which one of the other people in the article consider themselves woke? By the standards of the core concepts in your original definition? pretty much everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/144 "2023-02-14T12:37:34Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > None offered. You have the names and you have the literature. …accepted regardless. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I am, Well I know exactly _why_ you are ignoring my request for a cite. Its because you are unable to find anyone that considers themselves woke who uses a definition _outside_ of the original one. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You don’t accept that it has happened by people from all sides and you’ve been presented with cites on exactly that subject. You haven’t shown me a single person. Give me a name. Give me a quote. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > By the standards of the core concepts in your original definition? pretty much everyone. This is a bizarre assertion that simply isn’t backed up by your cite. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/145 "2023-02-14T12:57:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > you are unable to find anyone that considers themselves woke who uses a definition _outside_ of the original one. Who said anything about the definition being _outside_ of the original one? I’m talking about expanding from the original one to encompass other issues, policies and actions. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This is a bizarre assertion that simply isn’t backed up by your cite. Yes, it is an assertion. I’m quite comfortable asserting that all of the people in that article would agree that, if woke means “awareness of systematic injustices and prejudices”, then they are woke. I would as well, pretty much every single person I’ve ever met would think that as well. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/146 "2023-02-14T13:16:27Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Who said anything about the definition being _outside_ of the original one? …because if everyone that identifies as woke agrees with the original definition of woke, then that means that no, “both sides” are not just making up their own definitions. It means that one side is, and one side isn’t. It isn’t an endlessly malleable term for people of all sides. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m talking about expanding from the original one to encompass other issues, policies and actions. That wasn’t what I asked you for a cite for. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’m quite comfortable asserting that all of the people in that article would agree that, if woke means “awareness of systematic injustices and prejudices”, I’ve already quoted Zaid Jilani’s definition. They said that the “word woke loosely refers to a social media-fueled, leftwing political ideology that emerged in the English-speaking world in the early 2010s.” Jilani doesn’t agree with the original definition. They use it as a pejorative. They are _not_ woke. They are _anti-woke_. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > then they are woke. I didn’t ask for a cite for people that _you_ considered woke. I asked for a cite for people that considered _themselves_ woke. That’s the starting point. Not an article where people _define_ woke. But people who _consider themselves woke_ but use an alternative defintion of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/147 "2023-02-14T13:36:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > That wasn’t what I asked you for a cite for. It isn’t for me to provide a cite for a claim I didn’t make. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/148 "2023-02-14T13:45:24Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > It isn’t for me to provide a cite for a claim I didn’t make. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Woke means anything to the anti-woke. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > And the same is true for many of those who do or would have considered themselves to be “woke”. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …cite please. …cite please. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/149 "2023-02-14T14:23:09Z")
> **Muhammad Hijack Hidden by What Exit?** > > > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > > According to the writings of Islam he married a wife and consumated the marriage while she was very young. > > As discussed in my link, the consensus in Islam scholarship is that there is no reliable evidence that Muhammad consummated his marriage with Aisha before her puberty (which was the “adulthood” threshold for girls’ marital eligibility in most societies at the time, including Christian ones), and a great deal of evidence against it. Now that you know this, you know that continuing to refer to Muhammad as a “pedophile” based on your own preference for that distorted interpretation of the historical facts is ignorant bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/150 "2023-02-14T14:35:41Z")
Maybe we can get back on track, with most folks agreeing to these principles: 1. “Woke” is not a term commonly used for self-identification. 2. Among the few who self-identify as woke, there can be a propensity for smugness; but they’re so rare as to be not especially important. 3. The right has a long history of namecalling those on the left. “Woke” is used today the same way that “politically correct” was used in the nineties, and “race traitor” was used in the fifties, and “socialist” and “communist” have been used for at least a century, as intellectually vapid insults used for cynical political advantage. 4. There is a legitimate debate about which tactics are most effective in advancing progressive causes. When is it best to sit down to negotiate, and when is it best to be confrontational? (I’m personally a big fan of the framework King describes in [Letter from a Birmingham Jail](https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html) and reread it at least annually, but that’s not part of this point). Does anyone have any evidence to contradict any of these points? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/151 "2023-02-14T14:37:13Z")
---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/152 "2023-02-14T14:41:35Z")
What a mess … **No more on the Muslim/Muhammad Hijack.** Stay on Woke please. I will try to hide most of the off-topic hijack, I don’t see anything here worth breaking out to its own thread. Mostly sniping. While I’m at it, @Novelty_Bobble & @Banquet_Bear, drop your sniping also. It is not contributing in any way to the debate at this point. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/153 "2023-02-14T14:56:40Z")
This topic was automatically opened after 15 minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/154 "2023-02-14T15:01:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Does anyone have any evidence to contradict any of these points? No, they all seem to be fair points to which I’d add 1. Over the years various additional causes, concepts, actions and policies etc. have come to be associated with the term “woke”. Some with good intentions, some less so. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/155 "2023-02-14T15:01:47Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > While I’m at it, @Novelty_Bobble & @Banquet_Bear, drop your sniping also. It is not contributing in any way to the debate at this point. OK, will do. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/156 "2023-02-14T15:03:46Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No, they all seem to be fair points to which I’d add > > 1. Over the years various additional causes, concepts, actions and policies etc. have come to be associated with the term “woke”. Some with good intentions, some less so. The passive voice, as usual, obscures agency and responsibility. I would rephrase your point as follows: 1. Over the years, conservatives have used the term “woke” as an insult for additional causes, concepts, actions, and policies etc., as part of their opposition to these phenomena. Edit: anticipating a quibble with the word “conservative,” if you wish, you may substitute “people have used the term “woke” as an insult for additional causes, concepts, actions, and policies etc. that they oppose”. The key feature is that this expansion of the term is propelled by insults and opposition, not by self-identification, given how rare self-identification is. I think this is what @Banquet_Bear is saying–do I have the essence of your point, BB? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/157 "2023-02-14T15:31:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > do I have the essence of your point, BB? No, For some reason your summary is only dealing with the change to using the word as an insult. That is not the only way the term has expanded in its usage and reach. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/158 "2023-02-14T15:33:38Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No, For some reason your summary is only dealing with the change to using the word as an insult. Probably because there has been no evidence presented for any other change to the use of the word. You were REPEATEDLY asked to provide a citation for the idea that people who use the term “woke” to describe themselves have expanded the definition, and you have failed to do so, only bringing up additional examples of people mocking the term. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That is not the only way the term has expanded in its usage and reach. Again… Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/161 "2023-02-14T15:36:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Maybe we can get back on track, with most folks agreeing to these principles: > > 1. “Woke” is not a term commonly used for self-identification. I was a little surprised by this. I wouldn’t expect it to be in use by the majority, but given the origins of the term in the Black community being centred on how important it was to be woke, I’d expect that there’d be quite a lot of people within the community who did self-identify that way, at least. Do you have any stats? According to [this](https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/563415-poll-one-third-of-voters-identify-as-woke/), in July 2021 one in three (32%) of US voters said they consider themselves to be woke. I’m afraid I don’t know if Hill-HarrisX is a reputable polling org, but (perhaps tellingly?) it’s the only poll that comes up in initial googling. (By comparison, 12% of people in the UK identify as woke which at 1 in 8 is common enough - I’d certainly expect the UK figure to be lower than the US, for obvious reasons.) If people have become less likely to identify as woke since July 2021, and if this is because it’s become a boo-word on the right, I’d think that was a bad thing. It’s good to have a useful word to indicate that one cares about social justice, and bad if people feel they can’t use it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/162 "2023-02-14T15:37:21Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > No, For some reason your summary is only dealing with the change to using the word as an insult. That is not the only way the term has expanded in its usage and reach. You’re not BB. I was asking @Banquet_Bear, not you, if I was summarizing his point accurately. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604.md?page=9)