# How is anti-wokeism different from sexism and/or racism? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2023, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604 "2023-02-11T01:12:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/163 "2023-02-14T15:46:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You’re not BB. I was asking @Banquet_Bear, not you, if I was summarizing his point accurately. my mistake, FWIW though, your attempt at rephrasing my point completely changes what I was saying. You can have that as a seperate point (6) if you like and I would agree with it but it is not a fair rephrasing of what I said ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/164 "2023-02-14T15:54:49Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Probably because there has been no evidence presented for any other change to the use of the word. You were REPEATEDLY asked to provide a citation for the idea that people who use the term “woke” to describe themselves have expanded the definition, and you have failed to do so, only bringing up additional examples of people mocking the term. You have the cites. In those articles people talk specifically about how the term has expanded in many ways. Do they talk about the mocking usage? yes. Do they also talk about the other causes, actions, policies, areas that they consider to be relevant when talking about the concept of “woke”? yes, they do. Do you consider the BLM movement to be people who consider themselves “woke”? Would you say that they sought to expand the reach and defintion of what it means to be “woke”? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/165 "2023-02-14T16:03:14Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Do you consider the BLM movement to be people who consider themselves “woke”? > Would you say that they sought to expand the reach and defintion of what it means to be “woke”? It isn’t a matter of whether _we_ think the BLM movement considers themselves to be “woke”-That is too damn meta. _Do they actually refer to themselves as "woke?_ Yes, or no? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/166 "2023-02-14T16:22:59Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Do you have any stats? According to [this](https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/563415-poll-one-third-of-voters-identify-as-woke/), in July 2021 one in three (32%) of US voters said they consider themselves to be woke. I’m afraid I don’t know if Hill-HarrisX is a reputable polling org, but (perhaps tellingly?) it’s the only poll that comes up in initial googling. Oh, that’s interesting. If pushed by a poll like this, I’d cringe a lot and probably self-identify as “woke”–but it’s never something I’d volunteer. When I say that it’s not a term commonly used for self-identification, I should clarify: it’s very rarely _volunteered_ as a term for self-identification. People commonly self-identify as progressive, or liberal, or anarchist, or feminist, or anti-racist; but in the past couple of years at least, I don’t think I’ve heard _anyone_ self-identify as “woke.” Does that help clarify? > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > In those articles people talk specifically about how the term has expanded in many ways. Do they talk about the mocking usage? yes. Do they also talk about the other causes, actions, policies, areas that they consider to be relevant when talking about the concept of “woke”? yes, they do. I did not see _any_ examples where someone said, in essence, “Here’s a cause that I support, and I think the word ‘woke’ is a good descriptor of the cause.” Its expansion is, as near as I can tell, purely as a pejorative, used by folks to describe causes/actions/tactics/etc. that they _oppose_. Did I miss a cite where someone used it to describe something that they support, and advocated for the term’s expansion thereby? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/167 "2023-02-14T16:24:36Z")
Out of curiosity, has anyone watched the show [_Woke_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke_(TV_series))? It’s pretty delightful IMO, and it gets at a lot of the discomfort that folks on the left feel with the term. But discomfort with the term is very far removed from the use of the term as a pejorative to discredit the underlying ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/168 "2023-02-14T16:46:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Oh, that’s interesting. If pushed by a poll like this, I’d cringe a lot and probably self-identify as “woke”–but it’s never something I’d volunteer. When I say that it’s not a term commonly used for self-identification, I should clarify: it’s very rarely _volunteered_ as a term for self-identification. People commonly self-identify as progressive, or liberal, or anarchist, or feminist, or anti-racist; but in the past couple of years at least, I don’t think I’ve heard _anyone_ self-identify as “woke.” Does that help clarify? Yeah, that makes sense, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/169 "2023-02-14T19:38:29Z")
Just a data point - I do self-identify as woke and [have done so](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/kid-gloves-for-woke-posters/926840/7) on this board. And I mean the “aware of systemic racial injustices and prejudices” meaning when I use it. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/170 "2023-02-14T19:44:10Z")
If I’m in a playful mood, I’ll use “woke” as a self description but mostly I use the term left-liberal. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/171 "2023-02-14T19:47:01Z")
See, I’m not remotely a liberal, and just saying I’m left doesn’t say anything about my attitudes to racism. Plenty of racist commies out there. And as an aside, saying I’m an anarchist tends to cause as much boring pointless side-debate here as saying I’m not an atheist does, so I must say I don’t agree with the earlier point by LHOD about “commonly” identifying that way, at least on the Dope. I tend not to do so specifically because this board is in some ways more hostile to far leftists than it is to even Libertarians. Only “pacifist” seems to trigger people more. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/172 "2023-02-14T19:58:06Z")
Terms are hard and I hate them. It feels like every one comes with a bunch of extra baggage beyond the stuff I like. Terms come with assumed stances on positions, and I often disagree with some core assumptions you may make if I picked a given term and used it. Instead, I will happily tell you my position on any given issue, without pigeon-holing myself. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/173 "2023-02-14T20:03:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Only “pacifist” seems to trigger people more. Everyone wants to attack the pacifist for the easy win 🙂 If I think for a minute I can come up with better self-descriptors. I believe in manifesting self interest through social action, so any broad flavour of “lefty” would be fine. I’m very anti-bigot so Anti-racist/sexist/etc is fine. I’m firrmly for pushing back at all the weekly-rotating, paranoid, right-wing conspiracy/cultural-war stuff so anti-facist/SJW (or anti-anti-SJW)/woke/etc is good. And I really really dislike all the proud ignorance that comes with most bigotry. _(aside) We are all ignorant of something (hell, most things), I just find that bigots have put up rock-solid defences to nurture their ignorances._ So pro-knowledge, and pro-learning is best. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/174 "2023-02-14T20:49:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And as an aside, saying I’m an anarchist tends to cause as much boring pointless side-debate here as saying I’m not an atheist does, so I must say I don’t agree with the earlier point by LHOD about “commonly” identifying that way, at least on the Dope. Trying to understand: do you disagree with this point? > [@me](#): > > 1. “Woke” is not a term commonly used for self-identification. I’m just not sure that your views are common. Neither are mine–I don’t mean to belittle your views, and there are certain views I have about e.g., the military that are so out of the mainstream that I don’t generally talk about them on the board. But your data point, while interesting, doesn’t seem to me to contradict that quoted bit above. Do you find that self-identification as “woke” is in any sense common? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/175 "2023-02-14T20:49:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It isn’t a matter of whether _we_ think the BLM movement considers themselves to be “woke”-That is too damn meta. _Do they actually refer to themselves as "woke?_ > Yes, or no? yes, I’ll say with a decent degree of confidence that there are people in the BLM movement who identify with and support the term “woke”. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/176 "2023-02-14T21:06:24Z")
I’ll say with a decent degree of confidence that you don’t personally know a single one of them and that this is a useless assertion in this debate. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/177 "2023-02-14T21:06:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I did not see _any_ examples where someone said, in essence, “Here’s a cause that I support, and I think the word ‘woke’ is a good descriptor of the cause.” Its expansion is, as near as I can tell, purely as a pejorative, used by folks to describe causes/actions/tactics/etc. that they _oppose_. You are unlikely to see such a clear statement of intent with a wording that you approve of. The most recent expansion defintely has been to use it as a general-purpose pejorative but those writing the articles give their own views on how the word has morphed and expanded in usage and meaning in ways that are not purely pejorative. It would be deeply weird for such a loosely defined word with poltical significance _not_ to be used in indiosyncratic and individualised ways beyond its original coinage. I made reference to “feminism” upthread. Same principle. Has it been co-opted as a term of derision by opponents? definitely. Has it also been expanded upon and moulded by its adherents? Also definitely. Same goes for many of the -ism’s out there. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/178 "2023-02-14T21:07:43Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > I’ll say with a decent degree of confidence that you don’t personally know a single one of them and that this is a useless assertion in this debate. I know people who are BLM supporters, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/179 "2023-02-14T21:31:03Z")
So the goalpost drifts, _without any evidence whatsoever_, from “the BLM Movement considers themselves to be “woke” to " I’ll say with a decent degree of confidence that there are people in the BLM movement who identify with and support the term “woke”.” Yeah…I think that counts as a “no” for now. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/180 "2023-02-14T21:32:01Z")
Aaaand…the drift has gone continental. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/181 "2023-02-14T22:07:38Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I know people who are BLM supporters Color me skeptical. Either way it’s a bald assertion with no citation and functionally valueless in a debate. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2023, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604/182 "2023-02-14T22:12:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > to " I’ll say with a decent degree of confidence that there are people in the BLM movement who identify with and support the term “woke”.” And also support the expansion of the definition of the word. This constant projection of “I do it, therefore _they_ must do it, too!” gets old fast. The only evidence they have of their opponent’s malfeasance is their own. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-anti-wokeism-different-from-sexism-and-or-racism/979604.md?page=10)