# How Is Communism a Religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901 "2010-12-31T01:49:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/21 "2010-12-31T05:11:13Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > None of those things are necessary characteristics of of religions. Nor of churches. Nevertheless, some churches, some times, do behave in the way I described, i.e., in a more overbearing and inescapable and tyrannical way than any mere (non-ideological) state despotism ever would even think of desiring; and the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and its progeny-parties copied all that pretty precisely. And not they alone, of course. The Nazis were that way only more so, and unhindered even by the **pretense** of a conscience. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/22 "2010-12-31T05:22:27Z")
I’m not sure I would see Communism as a religion in and of itself, but taking the Soviet Union as an example (not least because I don’t know a vast amount about China, for example) it’s a lot easier to make the argument that Stalinism was a religion - the total, fervent belief in the leader is amazing to see. But when we get to Brezhnev, on the other hand, that focus doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/23 "2010-12-31T05:25:46Z")
Yes. North Korea uses leader worship too. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/24 "2010-12-31T05:38:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes. North Korea uses leader worship too. Well, that’s rather a special case . . . They’ve tried to keep it a secret, but Kim Jong-il really **is** a god. Unfortunately, he’s a peculiar sort, who can’t be worshipped without lots and lots of fasting. What, you don’t think the North Koreans have their economic system just because they’re **stupid,** do you? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/25 "2010-12-31T06:10:38Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > It is misleading to say that Marxism is faith based. It presents itself as science, and justifies its claims via observational evidence and and rational argumentation, just as genuine science does. It may be a _false_ scientific theory, but that does not make it faith based (in the sense that religions are) any more than any other false scientific theory, such as Ptolemaic astronomy or the phlogiston theory of combustion were faith based. It’s faith based like psychic powers or orgone energy or morphogenetic fields or other pseudosciences. It “justifies” its claims by flatly stating them and trying to twist evidence to fit them, or simply claiming that the lack of or outright contradictory evidence is due to a capitalist plot. Just like religion; just substitute “Satan” or “unbeliever” for “capitalist”. It _claims_ to be scientific, but it isn’t even close. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/26 "2010-12-31T06:14:31Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > It is not a religion because it does not make any sort of appeal to supernatural forces or beings. :dubious: I take it that you have not ever heard about the supernatural feats of the “dear leader” of North Korea? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/27 "2010-12-31T06:20:24Z")
It’s a religion in the same way that Atheism is a religion. If it walks like it’s not a duck, and quacks like it’s not a duck, and gets pissed off if you call it a duck, it’s a duck. Because if you’re not a duck, you wouldn’t act like you weren’t one or care if someone said you were. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/28 "2010-12-31T06:21:46Z")
“Bolshevism is not merely a political doctrine; it is also a religion, with elaborate dogmas and inspired scriptures. When Lenin wishes to prove some proposition, he does so, if possible, by quoting texts from Marx and Engels. A full-fledged Communist is not merely a man who believes that land and capital should be held in common, and their produce distributed as nearly equally as possible. He is a man who entertains a number of elaborate and dogmatic beliefs–such as philosophic materialism, for example–which may be true, but are not, to a scientific temper, capable of being known to be true with any certainty. This habit, of militant certainty about objectively doubtful matters, is one from which, since the Renaissance, the world has been gradually emerging, into that temper of constructive and fruitful scepticism which constitutes the scientific outlook.” – Bertrand Russell, [_The Practice and Theory of Bolshevism_](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/17350/17350-h/17350-h.htm) (1920) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/29 "2010-12-31T06:28:32Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It’s a religion in the same way that Atheism is a religion. Nonsense. Atheism isn’t like Communism/religion at all. It fits the facts, it doesn’t make any claims beyond disbelief in one particular category of supernatural creature. Atheism has no dogma, no agenda. It’s not a belief system. The two aren’t comparable at all. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/30 "2010-12-31T06:41:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense. Atheism isn’t like Communism/religion at all. It fits the facts, it doesn’t make any claims beyond disbelief in one particular category of supernatural creature. Atheism has no dogma, no agenda. It’s not a belief system. > > The two aren’t comparable at all. Duck Season! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/31 "2010-12-31T06:41:49Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Duck Season! Not a meaningful rebuttal. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/32 "2010-12-31T06:43:48Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Duck Season! your comparison really wasn’t valid. Atheism contains no religious characteristics, mostly because it contains no beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/33 "2010-12-31T06:48:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not a meaningful rebuttal. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > your comparison really wasn’t valid. Atheism contains no religious characteristics, mostly because it contains no beliefs. Where did my post mention beliefs or dogma or the supernatural or agenda? I stated what I consider the hallmarks of a religion. If you disagree, fine. But my comparison was perfectly valiid. Atheists and Communists both claim not to be religions and bristle when referred to as such. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/34 "2010-12-31T06:52:00Z")
Atheism contaains no hallmarks of religion. Claiming not to be a religion is not a hallmark of religion. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/35 "2010-12-31T06:52:40Z")
Dammit, BrainGlutton beat me to a Russell quote. Mine is different though: > [@Bertrand Russell](#): > > The Jewish pattern of history, past and future, is such as to make a powerful appeal to the oppressed and unfortunate at all times. Saint Augustine adapted this pattern to Christianity, Marx to Socialism. To understand Marx psychologically, one should use the following dictionary: > > Yahweh = Dialectical Materialism > The Messiah = Marx > The Elect = The Proletariat > The Church = The Communist Party > The Second Coming = The Revolution > Hell = Punishment of the Capitalists > The Millennium = The Communist Commonwealth > > The terms on the left give the emotional content of the terms on the right, and it is this emotional content, familiar to those who have had a Christian or a Jewish upbringing, that makes Marx’s eschatology credible. A similar dictionary could be made for the Nazis, but their conceptions are more purely Old Testament and less Christian than those of Marx, and their Messiah is more analogous to the Maccabees than to Christ. “A History of Western Philosophy” (1945), Book II, Chapter IV, section II I think it’s important to differentiate between two related but different meanings of “communism”. One is strictly an economic theory. The other is a set of beliefs and ideology which includes, but is by no means limited to, an economic theory. The first is definitely not a religion. The second is extremely similar to a religion in many respects. Whether or not one _calls_ it a religion is just a matter of definitional temperament. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/36 "2010-12-31T07:04:42Z")
“The Catholic and the Communist are alike in assuming that an opponent cannot be both honest and intelligent.” – George Orwell ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/37 "2010-12-31T08:27:43Z")
Practically speaking, in the US, the Communist Party would not get [tax exempt status](http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html) like religions do because it’s an action organization. So there’s one difference. It seems ironic to me that when atheism was compared to religion a fairly strict interpretation was called for, but cherry picking and doubtful stretches are better accepted in this discussion. Sure, some people probably did use, say, Stalinism, as a religion or religion substitute (it’s not called a **cult** of personality for nothing). Some people also seem to me to use dope, sex, or football as a religion or religion substitute. Also, let’s note that Stalin did not consider religion intolerable when things got dicey, and not only for reasons of morale. > [@Sacred Causes: The Clash of Religion and Politics](#): > > The regime made a few cautious and parsimonious concessions to a Church that played a major role in maintaining wartime morale. It tolerated rather than encouraged religion. Overt anti-religious propaganda may have ceased for the duration… > > By the end of the war, the Church had contributed 150 million rubles [to the Soviet war effort]. Why it would be desirable to confuse an economic theory or political philosophy with a religion? In the case of an atheist like Russell, perhaps because Marxists give atheism a bad name. I wonder if he would appreciate that both he and Lenin are listed in the Wikipedia entry for [antireligion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antireligion). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/38 "2010-12-31T08:43:07Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > I wonder if he would appreciate that both he and Lenin are listed in the Wikipedia entry for [antireligion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antireligion). I’m sure he would. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/39 "2010-12-31T10:59:02Z")
No less an authority than Beria himself called Stalin “a quasi Islamic” about his fanatical belief in Marxism. Also, during the great purge Stalin referred to the thousands who were shot as having “lost faith” in the party. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/40 "2010-12-31T11:38:17Z")
That’s as may be, but I fail to see how it makes Communism a religion, especially when one considers that some [Communists](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_communism)find their economics compatible with religion. Perhaps a more persuasive argument can be made that one of the brands of Communism, such as Leninism or Stalinism, was a sort of religion for some people. While looking for information, I was amused to find a quote similar to something I had just read: > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Communism is faith based belief in a sacred narrative of human history and inevitable future. It contains prophets. It is moralistic. It has a sacred ethos. It has laws based on sacred beliefs and it claims to know the secrets of human nature and how humans should behave. It is not just a political or economic system, it is a mythic ideology. > [@](#): > > If we disregard its atheism for a moment, communism has all the trappings of an organized religion: its messiahs and saints–Marx, Engels and Lenin; its sacred scriptures–the writings of these men; a band of apostles and prophets–the Communist Party; an. elect nation–the Russian (or Chinese) people; sin–defined as rejecting communism; conversion–becoming a communist; and above all faith–that complete trust one must have in the truth of communism’s holy dogmas. I figure I could write something similar about (for instance) the Republican party if I wanted. Or the company I work for. Or this message board: If we disregard its supposed atheism for a moment, the Straight Dope Message Board has all the trappings of an organized religion: its messiahs and saints–Adams and Zotti; its sacred scriptures–the writings of these men; a band of apostles and prophets–the Advisory Board and Moderators; an elect group– Midwestern nerds who really like Buffy the Vampire Slayer; sin–defined as under-tipping; conversion–marked by the consumption of Bacon Salt; and above all faith–that complete trust one must have in the truth of the Straight Dope’s holy dogmas. Very easy, very silly. The source of the quote was the Middletown Bible Church’s [website](http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/crisesod/crises9.htm). What made their little quiz extra amusing to me was how they used dozens of Biblical cites to support the claim that God hates teh commies while studiously ignoring the Book of Acts. > [@Acts 2:44-45](#): > > All that believed were together, and had all things in common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901.md?page=3)