# How Is Communism a Religion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 31, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901 "2010-12-31T01:49:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/61 "2010-12-31T16:36:12Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > The reason atheists (and, I assume, communists) “bristle” at the comparison to religion is because that argument is merely step one of a larger argument, one we’ve seen hundreds of times before: > > 1. Atheism is just another religion! Therefore, my (theistic) beliefs are just as valid as yours! > > 2. Since my (theistic) beliefs are just as valid as your (atheistic) beliefs, one of us has to be wrong. I have a book which says I’m right, so your beliefs are wrong! > > 3. Prophet! > > Since this is clearly a bogus line of reasoning, it’s best to nip it in the bud when it starts. You are right. Your bogus line of reasoning should be nipped in the bud. Stop quacking if you aren’t a duck. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/62 "2010-12-31T16:51:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, both posit a general all-explanatory world-view that transcends any individual life. And in both cases the world-view is not merely an intellectual proposition, it is something that should guide the personal life and actions of anyone who accepts it. If that makes them a religion, then Mike Krzyzewski’s philosophy of coaching basketball is a religion. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/63 "2010-12-31T16:53:47Z")
OK, let’s separate communism (the economic system) from totalitarianism (eg, Stalinism and Kimism, or whatever you call the NK system of government). We have communism as a way of organizing economic activity and we have capitalism as a way of organizing economic activity. If communism is a religion, then so is capitalism. Praise the Smith! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/64 "2010-12-31T17:03:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, let’s separate communism (the economic system) from totalitarianism (eg, Stalinism and Kimism, or whatever you call the NK system of government). > > We have communism as a way of organizing economic activity and we have capitalism as a way of organizing economic activity. If communism is a religion, then so is capitalism. Praise the Smith! You laugh, but at the end of _Atlas Shrugged_ John Galt draws a dollar sign in the air as if it were a cross . . . Capitalism-as-religion is by no means farfetched, at least, not in America. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/65 "2010-12-31T17:04:45Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I never go in them for just that reason. Yes, soup kitchens **are** dangerous these days! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/66 "2010-12-31T17:11:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You laugh, but at the end of _Atlas Shrugged_ John Galt draws a dollar sign in the air as if it were a cross . . . Capitalism-as-religion is by no means farfetched, at least, not in America. So, is capitalism a religion? I think you’re on the side of communism not being a religion, but what about capitalism? Keep in mind that almost anything\* can be turned into a religion, but I think we need to focus on here is if communism is necessarily a religion. \*including Objectivism ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/67 "2010-12-31T17:24:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > So, is capitalism a religion? I think you’re on the side of communism not being a religion, but what about capitalism? > > Keep in mind that almost anything\* can be turned into a religion, but I think we need to focus on here is if communism is necessarily a religion. > > \*including Objectivism Big-C Marxist-Leninist Communism is necessarily a religion; too dogmatic and all-pervasive to be anything else. Other schools of communism or socialism, not necessarily. Objectivism is **too** obviously and necessarily a religion to be a useful reference point in this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![JohnnyMac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@JohnnyMac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnyMac)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/68 "2010-12-31T17:26:23Z")
Someone mentioned the words “action organisation” upthread - I assume that has a strict legal definition that I’m unsure of, but going by the general idea there, I have to say I think a fair assessment would be: (a) Communisim is very like a religion. Politics, in fact, is very like religion, every stripe of it. (b) Political philosophies (economic philosophies, etc) base their philosophies and actions on social change creating quantifiable difference in the here-and-now (this is what I think of when I hear “action organisation”, too - a Christian political movement is a political movement based on a religion, isn’t it?), while religions base their philosophies on attaining something intangible (heaven, nirvana, etc, etc). Both politics and religion have a core philosophy to them, and perhaps they use similar techniques, but their ends differ. Is there somewhere I’m going wrong here? ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/69 "2010-12-31T17:27:22Z")
Communism per se is not a religion I think, but in practice, many communist (and fascist) countries were run as totalitarian regimes with what can easily be described as enforced leader/party worship. Whether that makes those countries _theocracies_ can be debated, but personally, I think it’s a bit of a cop-out, and probably clouding our understanding. The problem with Stalinism and Nazism (aside from their moral and scientific mistakes) isn’t their similarity to religion, it’s their _totalitarianism_ - which is also the biggest problem with “fundamentalist” religious beliefs. If someone holds mistaken beliefs, that’s not a big deal, but when they force people to act on mistaken beliefs in practically every facet of their lives, it quickly becomes a very real problem. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/70 "2010-12-31T17:31:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, soup kitchens **are** dangerous these days! Hell yeah, they have this whole malignant and brutal thing going. I mean, have you tasted the soup? Please Please don’t make me eat anymore, I believe I believe. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/71 "2010-12-31T17:31:30Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Communism per se is not a religion I think, but in practice, many communist (and fascist) countries were run as totalitarian regimes with what can easily be described as enforced leader/party worship. > > Whether that makes those countries _theocracies_ can be debated, but personally, I think it’s a bit of a cop-out, and probably clouding our understanding. The problem with Stalinism and Nazism (aside from their moral and scientific mistakes) isn’t their similarity to religion, it’s their _totalitarianism_ - which is also the biggest problem with “fundamentalist” religious beliefs. If someone holds mistaken beliefs, that’s not a big deal, but when they force people to act on mistaken beliefs in practically every facet of their lives, it quickly becomes a very real problem. I agree, although one key difference is that something like Stalinism, for example, loses probably 95% (or more) of it’s “congregation” as soon as the force of the government is taken away. Traditional religions, like Catholicism or Islam, maintain most of their adherence without the force of law. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/72 "2010-12-31T17:37:23Z")
But communism was / is often _more_ than an economic system. The economic system itself is not a religion, but there were definitely strains of communism that went much further than a simple economic theory. For example, the idea of sexual and racial equality was a core communist principle. This is an idea not about how things could be more efficient economically, but how things _should_ be done because it is _right_ to do them that way. Communist ideas spread to many communities largely through their emotional appeal of universal brotherhood and equality, not because of any analysis of economic efficiency. On preview I see a good question from **John Mace**. I do not think communism is necessarily a religion. I do think a certain form of communism can fairly be called a secular religion. Let’s suppose that somebody calls themselves a Christian. They go to church every Sunday and claim to practice Christianity. After talking with them, you realize that they don’t believe in any “son of God” stuff; they simply revere Jesus as an excellent human being whose moral pronouncements should be listened to. Let’s further suppose that you do not consider their belief system to be truly a “religion”, since it lacks supernatural elements. That merely means that Christianity, defined broadly enough, is not necessarily a religion. It does not mean that Christianity cannot be a religion, because there are obviously types of Christianity that are considered religions. In most cases it doesn’t matter if one considers a form of communism a true religion or merely similar to a religion. This is kind of like debating how many Engels can dance on the head of a pin. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/73 "2010-12-31T17:45:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > For those who cite it as an example of atheistic ideology, I would point out that is not sufficient under Stalinist/Maoist-type systems simply to be an atheist. You must also believe in the party. Even under Stalin, membership in the Communist party was not a legal requirement; indeed, it was considered a privilege and it was harder than joining a political party in the USA. People were routinely kicked out of the Party for, say, not paying dues on time, or not showing up to enough meetings. While the Party and state were intertwined, they were still distinct entities and it was quite possible for a person to be a good citizen and a good Communist without actually being a member of the Party. So under the Stalinist system, there wasn’t any widespread requirement to belong to the Party. I don’t believe there was ever a point in the history of the USSR when ten percent of adults belonged to the Party. Adherence to Communism was certainly an absolute requirement and you’re quite right in saying that Communism is a religion in every aspect but the supernatural. I’m just clarifying a little point, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/74 "2010-12-31T17:57:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Even under Stalin, membership in the Communist party was not a legal requirement; indeed, it was considered a privilege and it was harder than joining a political party in the USA. People were routinely kicked out of the Party for, say, not paying dues on time, or not showing up to enough meetings. While the Party and state were intertwined, they were still distinct entities and it was quite possible for a person to be a good citizen and a good Communist without actually being a member of the Party. > > So under the Stalinist system, there wasn’t any widespread requirement to belong to the Party. I don’t believe there was ever a point in the history of the USSR when ten percent of adults belonged to the Party. > > Adherence to Communism was certainly an absolute requirement and you’re quite right in saying that Communism is a religion in every aspect but the supernatural. I’m just clarifying a little point, that’s all. But again, you are confusing the totalitarian political system of the USSR with communism. You could have the identical political system with a capitalist economy, but that wouldn’t make capitalism a religion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/75 "2010-12-31T18:10:08Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Adherence to Communism was certainly an absolute requirement . . . I don’t think so, except for Party members. For the average Soviet citizen, the only absolute requirement was to keep any opinions critical of Communism to oneself. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/76 "2010-12-31T18:11:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I don’t think so, except for Party members. For the average Soviet citizen, the only absolute requirement was to keep any opinions critical of Communism to oneself. Nope. You couldn’t set up a shop and start selling things for a profit, even if you proclaimed the glory of communism. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/77 "2010-12-31T18:32:37Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > First, not everyone has the time or skill to become a pilot. Skill? You’ve only got to crash the damn thing, once. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/78 "2010-12-31T18:47:31Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Even under Stalin, membership in the Communist party was not a legal requirement; indeed, it was considered a privilege and it was harder than joining a political party in the USA. People were routinely kicked out of the Party for, say, not paying dues on time, or not showing up to enough meetings. While the Party and state were intertwined, they were still distinct entities and it was quite possible for a person to be a good citizen and a good Communist without actually being a member of the Party. > > So under the Stalinist system, there wasn’t any widespread requirement to belong to the Party. I don’t believe there was ever a point in the history of the USSR when ten percent of adults belonged to the Party. > > Adherence to Communism was certainly an absolute requirement and you’re quite right in saying that Communism is a religion in every aspect but the supernatural. I’m just clarifying a little point, that’s all. I didn’t say formal _membership_ was required (I know that it wasn’t), but that _belief_ is. Loyalty to the state and to the ideology of the party are required. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/79 "2010-12-31T18:49:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I don’t think so, except for Party members. For the average Soviet citizen, the only absolute requirement was to keep any opinions critical of Communism to oneself. Or to express any belief or support for any other ideology. No “false gods” allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901/80 "2010-12-31T18:51:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But again, you are confusing the totalitarian political system of the USSR with communism. You could have the identical political system with a capitalist economy, but that wouldn’t make capitalism a religion. You can’t minimize Communism as an economic system. It’s an entire mythos. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-communism-a-religion/565901.md?page=5)