# How is genocide defined, with an emphasis on cultural genocide? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 13, 2021, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198 "2021-06-13T23:23:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/61 "2021-06-15T18:40:22Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I never denied it was genocide, you ignorant fucking mouthbreather. Offer proof I did or go fuck yourself with your bullshit lies. You literally quote an instance of your own genocide denial in your most recent post you fucking dipshit. Genocide denial is not limited to denying that genocide occurred. It includes minimizing the scale and severity of the genocide, and all your posts about residential schools do exactly that. You are contributing to the last stages of this incidence of genocide and are too stupid to realize it. This would be sad if it wasn’t so abhorrent. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/62 "2021-06-15T18:40:29Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > > > How about death during a kidnap, where the kidnapper claims he didn’t really intend to kill his victim, only kidnap and brainwash him? > > You ever seen _Fargo_? How did you feel about William H. Macy, the schmuck who tries to get out from under an impending embezzlement investigation by having his wife kidnapped and held for ransom, as compared to Peter Stormaire, the goon Macy hires, who murders the wife and feeds her into a woodchipper? Macy’s character is 100% responsible for the death of his wife, in both a legal and a moral sense, but I still feel there’s a significant distinction between that hapless fuck-up, and the utter sociopath Stormaire played. > > Which isn’t to say that the Canadian government were just hapless fuck ups here. I don’t think they were motivated by compassion for these kids, so much as wanting a more exploitable underclass. Natives living their traditional way of life don’t generate tax revenue. Factory workers do. I suspect the government’s interest here was less “We have to give these kids the brightest future possible,” and more, “If you beat them enough, they can learn to run an industrial loom.” My take is more that it was a misplaced sense of _noblesse oblige_, I don’t think you need to make them Christians or suppress their native language to get them to run industrial looms. The factories of the era were frequently worked by immigrants who couldn’t speak English. It’s also probably hard to generalize. The entire history of white interactions with the natives is complex with no consistent, unified white stance on them at any given time. Even as far back as the 1600s there were white men advocating we leave them be, albeit quite obviously those voices were never very influential. Meanwhile we had a lot of leaders who weren’t remotely working from a sense of misplaced _noblesse oblige_ but who instead were fairly openly for killing em all and taking their land, and the “only good one is a dead one.” ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/63 "2021-06-15T18:46:18Z")
So you’re just openly lying then? Nothing in my posts denies anything, period. Saying that the separation of natives (temporarily, for set periods of time) from their children was not the same as slave separations **a point another poster brought up** is not “minimizing’ anything.” If I randomly brought up the canard of “hey this wasn’t as bad as slave family separations” for no reason, there might be some meat to your claim. That is not what happened. Another poster brought up slave separations, I responded to them bringing it up, because the last I checked this board is about fighting ignorance and actually exploring the reality of a topic. When someone compares something, it is useful to put parameters on that comparison. If I was just swooping into the thread dropping arguments out of the blue, you would have some point. When I am pushing back against overly broad, incorrect, or distortionary things other people post, I am working to clarify the informational narrative. You’re just a straight idiot looking for a fight, and your crutch with your weak pathetic brain is to just assume anyone who isn’t in lock step agreement with you has the worst possible motives. I haven’t seen one shred of evidence you can speak intelligently on this or any other topic. I note in the other thread you started crying like a little imbecile when I simply said that “while this was definitely genocide and would be called cultural genocide, it doesn’t unambiguously meet the 1948 UN Convention definition”, I then explicitly said that said convention definition is not the only accepted definition of genocide–I also pointed out that lots of elements of Western treatment of natives unambiguously would meet the 1948 convention. But that triggered you because, again, anyone who doesn’t want to have the dumbest, simplest view of something sends you frothing. Since you yourself are only capable of holding the dumbest and simplest of views, it enrages you that other people are capable of applying critical thinking skills to various topics, including controversial ones. You and people like you, by the way, are why we have so many Neo-Nazis, Holocaust deniers etc in society today. When people throw away the truth and critical analysis because they just want to froth up a lot to condemn bad people, it creates holes in your arguments, holes that bad actors can use to debunk the entire point you’re making. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/64 "2021-06-15T18:54:46Z")
Wow. You’re really doubling down on this active participation in late genocide thing. Everyone needs a hobby I guess. What a piece of shit. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/65 "2021-06-15T18:55:07Z")
And another non-argument, obviously nothing more to see here. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/66 "2021-06-15T18:56:00Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > > > You seem to be arguing that the end justifies the means, and that sincere ‘good intentions’ are an excuse for bad actions. They are not. > > No, I am not arguing that. In fact, you clipped off the very next sentence I wrote, about how **the people responsible for the system were [wrong] _and thereby created_ an environment ripe for abuse.** How is calling somebody “horrifically wrong” the same as “excus[ing]” their actions or somehow justifying anything at all? That seems to invite one to overlook the fact that the existence of the system itself WAS abuse. There was no way to staff it that would have rendered the system NOT abusive. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/67 "2021-06-15T18:58:05Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > They started from the belief that _of course_ the habits and modes of thought of white men (meaning, Western European ideas about capitalism, religion, individualism, private property, the role of women, etc.) were superior. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) itself noted, “The residential school system was based on an assumption that European civilization and Christian religions were superior to Aboriginal culture, which was seen as being savage and brutal.” ([cite, p. 11](https://ehprnh2mwo3.exactdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Executive_Summary_English_Web.pdf)) However, they didn’t think the Indian was disposable or subhuman; they thought the Indian was perfectly capable of becoming a “good” Canadian citizen, as long as he absorbed what they thought to be the correct values, and the schools were designed in theory to teach those values. Why do you so unquestioningly accept their own words about their intentions, when their intentions did not match the actual practices? I mean, in this same era they weren’t taking kids away from other types of “undesirables” on a large scale and sticking them into dangerous environments. This is how they sold Indian Removal. You shouldn’t just knee-jerk assume they sincerely meant every word–because if they did, they wouldn’t have stolen children and crammed them into unsafe facilities. How many “reformed” Indians did they produce, as a % of the ones stolen? ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/68 "2021-06-15T19:00:15Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > And another non-argument, obviously nothing more to see here. Your genocide denial is there for all to see. Enjoy being horrible. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2021, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/69 "2021-06-15T19:40:59Z")
On reflection, I have to agree that placing this thread in the Pit was a well-considered move. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/70 "2021-06-16T01:22:38Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Genocide denial is not limited to denying that genocide occurred. Not to agree with @Martin_Hyde or disagree with you about your general thrust, but that just sounds like nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/71 "2021-06-16T01:33:33Z")
Maybe you could read the next sentence of that post. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/72 "2021-06-16T01:46:24Z")
I did. In it you enumerate things that you found problematic about Martin’s approach/attitude. Great. I’m on board. Why those things must be “genocide denial” even if they are, as you admit, not denying that genocide occurred, is beyond me. Now you can have a semantic pissing match about which “not denying genocide occured” things are in fact denying genocide even though they aren’t. Knock yourself out, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/73 "2021-06-16T01:52:24Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Why those things must be “genocide denial” even if they are, as you admit, not denying that genocide occurred, is beyond me. Here’s [the first sentence of the Wikipedia page on genocide denial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_denial)… > **Genocide denial** is the attempt to deny or minimize the scale and severity of an incidence of [genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide). Minimizing the severity of an incidence of genocide is possibly the most common form of genocide denial. I’m not engaging in a semantic pissing match. I’m using the commonly accepted definition of genocide denial. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/74 "2021-06-16T02:23:28Z")
In Lance’s world pointing out things that did not, factually happen = minimizing. That’s a hallmark sign of a dishonest/stupid person. It’s like if someone said the Nazis used space lasers to kill Jews. Pointing out that did not actually happen, is not “minimizing” the Holocaust. A genocide isn’t tagged with a standard by which you cannot perform factual analysis of it, otherwise you’re asserting a standard in which any situation where a genocide has occurred, no analysis of the facts presented, by any person, at any time, anywhere, can be performed. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/75 "2021-06-16T02:49:45Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > In Lance’s world pointing out things that did not, factually happen = minimizing. That in no way resembles what occurred. The Canadian treatment of the First Nations unambiguously satisfies the UN definition of genocide. Twisting that definition by adding words (permanent, complete) to claim that technically the residential school system wasn’t genocide is a hallmark sign of a dishonest/stupid person. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/76 "2021-06-16T04:39:19Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > The Canadian treatment of the First Nations unambiguously satisfies the UN definition of genocide. [2(b) & 2(e) in particular.](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/over-200-unmarked-graves-of-indigenous-children-discovered-at-bc-residential-school/943674/207) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/77 "2021-06-16T04:54:50Z")
Again, I never made any such statements. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/78 "2021-06-16T12:05:10Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It’s like if someone said the Nazis used space lasers to kill Jews. That’s a pretty bad analogy, as no one is claiming things that didn’t happen. It would be more like stating that the Nazis didn’t kill _all_ the Jews, so it wasn’t genocide. Factually correct that they didn’t kill all the Jews, a fact that no one would argue, but it is minimizing what they _did_ do. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/79 "2021-06-16T12:23:03Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Again, I never made any such statements. You sure did you genocide denying piece of crap. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It’s also worth noting AFAIK most of the boarding school separations were not permanent and complete, which complicates comparing it directly to the separation of slave families which were generally permanent and complete. “Sometime the genociders took Christmas off, derpa, derpa, derp,” is not as great an argument as you seem to think it is. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2021, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198/80 "2021-06-16T12:36:07Z")
Or the did it out of a sincere belief that Jews were genetically inferior and they sincerely thought they presented a danger to the rest of humanity, so their intentions were good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-is-genocide-defined-with-an-emphasis-on-cultural-genocide/944198.md?page=5)